Philosophy Now Forum

Seleucus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:04 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:38 am

Seleucus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:44 am
Yes, I've noticed that. The rise of nationalism has been happening since at least 2000 in India, it spread across the 3rd World, and only last arrived in the First World. Globally it is getting much much harder to get working visas and residency permits everywhere.

Really? And it has nothing to do with 'Nationalism'.

It has everything to do with nationalism.

No it doesn't.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:25 am

Seleucus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:04 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:38 amReally? And it has nothing to do with 'Nationalism'.

It has everything to do with nationalism.

No it doesn't.

I would have thought the increasing difficulty world wide with getting residency papers and working permits would have something to do with the global re-emergence of nationalism? What is your view then, and why, if it differs?

____________________________

"For Britain" new nationalist party just launched today!!

https://youtu.be/qDgIccx_5qI

Seleucus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:00 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:46 pm

davidm wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:55 pm

Indians are filthy? Do you mean Native Americans? Residents of the nation of India? In either case you are wrong on both counts. Where do you get your "ideas" from? From alt-right (i.e., Nazi) websites.

Funny thing, when the residents of Tenochtitlan met the Spanish they were amazed at how filthy the Spanish were and how badly they stank. The Spanish were in turn amazed by the city that they beheld, judging it far superior to anything in Europe.

And people like to think of Africans as always having been 'primitive villagers' when in fact they had many great cities and sophisticated civilisations all over the continent.

''We begin with Benin City. At the end of the 13th century, a European traveler encountered the great metropolis in West Africa (present Nigeria, Edo State), writing:

“The town seems to be very great. When you enter into it, you go into a great broad street, not paved, which seems to be seven or eight times broader than the Warmoes street in Amsterdam…The Kings palace is a collection of buildings which occupy as much space as the town of Harlem, and which is enclosed with walls. There are numerous apartments for the Prince`s ministers and fine galleries, most of which are as big as those on the Exchange at Amsterdam. They are supported by wooden pillars encased with copper, where their victories are depicted, and which are carefully kept very clean. The town is composed of thirty main streets, very straight and 120 feet wide, apart from an infinity of small intersecting streets. The houses are close to one another, arranged in good order. These people are in no way inferior to the Dutch as regards cleanliness; they wash and scrub their houses so well that they are polished and shining like a looking glass.” (Source: Walter Rodney, ‘How Europe Underdeveloped Africa, pg. 69)

The mediaeval Nigerian city of Benin was built to “a scale comparable with the Great Wall of China”. There was a vast system of defensive walling totalling 10,000 miles in all. Even before the full extent of the city walling had become apparent the Guinness Book of Records carried an entry in the 1974 edition that described the city as: “The largest earthworks in the world carried out prior to the mechanical era.” – Excerpt from “The Invisible Empire”, PD Lawton, Source-YouTube, uploader-dogons2k12 `African Historical Ruins`

“Benin art of the Middle Ages was of the highest quality. An official of the Berlin Museum für Völkerkunde once stated that: “These works from Benin are equal to the very finest examples of European casting technique. Benvenuto Cellini could not have cast them better, nor could anyone else before or after him . . . Technically, these bronzes represent the very highest possible achievement.”

Sadly, in 1897, Benin City was destroyed by British forces under Admiral Harry Rawson. The city was looted, blown up and burnt to the ground. A collection of the famous Benin Bronzes are now in the British Museum in London. Part of the 700 stolen bronzes by the British troops were sold back to Nigeria in 1972.''

I am quite familiar with these sorts of attempts at revisionist history, and while there were some minor civilizations in Africa, and they are in deed fascinating and amazing, it doesn't change the fact that the apex of human civilization was largely in the West. Africa was cut-off by the Sahara from the trade of ideas back-and-forth around Eurasia, just like the Americas and Australia were also cut-off, leaving these places by and large in the stone age.

'Revisionist history'. That's pretty rich coming from you.

Seleucus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:22 am No. No one is going to confuse Orientals with Whites. But, there is some overlap, like the Sami who live in Scandinavia but have slanty eyes and round faces.

Let me have another go at explaining this to you.

Suppose we discovered a new island. On that island live some people; they all have the same coloured skin, the same shaped eyes, the same sort of hair, speak the same language and have the same religion, they also share a genetic marker. Are they the same race?

The answer is no. If you isolate any group, the same thing will happen - and quite quickly.

Think of dogs. The 'Alaskan Klee Kai' is highly distinctive, but that does not mean it represents some original 'race' of dogs, to be contrasted with ordinary dogs which have become mongrelised. On the contrary, the 'Alaskan Klee Kai' only dates from the 1980s. It is the mongrels that are the original dog. And if the new breed was allowed to mate freely, it would revert to an ordinary dog even faster than it was created.

So, you have got it all completely back to front. Any visible difference between 'Orientals' and 'Whites' is recent, and superficial, which we can see because if they get together and have children then what you claim above is not longer true; we cannot tell which group they belong to.

You can make your non-essentialist arguments for a lot of things, and sure it is true at a certain level, yet, we generally can speak of men and women, we can generally speak of able-bodied people, and straight people and children and adults. And it's okay to say, hey, "I'm an adult". "I'm a straight White male". That's morally okay to say that and to take an interest in the culture and identity that goes along with it.

'Goes along with it?' What does that mean? That there is some sort of genetic connection between being a heterosexual male and....what? Speaking a particular language? Enjoying cricket? Being lactose intolerant? It just makes no sense.

Seleucus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:00 am I am quite familiar with these sorts of attempts at revisionist history, and while there were some minor civilizations in Africa, and they are in deed fascinating and amazing, it doesn't change the fact that the apex of human civilization was largely in the West. Africa was cut-off by the Sahara from the trade of ideas back-and-forth around Eurasia, just like the Americas and Australia were also cut-off, leaving these places by and large in the stone age.

By saying 'the apex of human civilization was largely in the West' he means to imply that those of us living in the west now can claim a sort of credit for it. For example, I can think:

Einstein lived in Europe, I live in Europe, therefore I am like Einstein.

Alas; no.

Seleucus wrote:

It could go either way. If current rates of immigration continue White countries like Canada and the United States will become authoritarian, low IQ, non-environmentalist, non-artistic, non-sporting, etc. High status culture tends to have a powerful pull, everyone ends up following the cultural nucleus, the Anglo Saxons being a prime example -- but there must be some point where immigrant masses drown the ethnic center.

I imagine so. I bet that your point of no return is positioned on much less immigration than my point of no return.

Meantime the modern economically -developed democracies are increasing education and social mobility for all including for dirtyish immigrants from underdeveloped villages and cities where clean water is scarce. These formerly dirtyish people take advantage of the education and the social mobility and add their cultural assets to Anglo Saxon cultural assets.

What is this about dirty peoples, anyway? I thought that you had a blanket aversion to sunnis. But sunnis wash before each prayer, and make a big point of wearing white clothes especially fortunate hajis.

Seleucus wrote:Plenty do doubt. I hear as many as half of the people in Rome were slaves at one time. More than half the people in Mesopotamia during the Abbasid caliphate were African slaves leading into the Zanj Rebellion. I understand that you hate your own culture and your people and always want to denigrate it, but what is your point?

Well apart from the Romans not being my people and not hating my culture my point is that your description of Rome as a cultural haven where tourists flocked was also a lawless slavery for the bulk of foreigners there.

So? The industrial revolution happened, the Middle Ages happened. I understand that you hate your own culture and your people and always want to denigrate it, but what is your point?

You understand wrongly as usual but the point is that cultures change over time so claiming race as a source for current circumstances is pretty much bollocks.

It could go either way. If current rates of immigration continue White countries like Canada and the United States will become authoritarian, low IQ, non-environmentalist, non-artistic, non-sporting, etc. High status culture tends to have a powerful pull, everyone ends up following the cultural nucleus, the Anglo Saxons being a prime example -- but there must be some point where immigrant masses drown the ethnic center. ...

Given that most countries control their immigration I doubt this, as I doubt all the other claims you've just made not least because over here the latest immigrant groups are doing rather well in our primary education because apparently their parents push them. If the 'ethnic center' was to be outnumbered I's see it more that they've stopped breeding for some reason.

I expect race, religion, language and culture are each separable, I'm anti-Whorfian. ...

Which apparently contradicts your earlier claims about race, religion and language?

There are some fuzzy zone and some outliers. But they tend to be cybernetic symbiotic entities.

What're 'cybernetic symbiotic entities' when they're at home?

Seleucus wrote: If current rates of immigration continue White countries like Canada and the United States will become authoritarian, low IQ, non-environmentalist, non-artistic, non-sporting, etc.

So? Even if this were true...which it is not...but even if it were...mothers would still tuck their babies in at night, the world would still reproduce, people would still seek adventure, money, fame, etc.

So what if whites were completely wiped off the face of the world? So you'd be brown....you wouldn't know any different.

Think about it this way...what if there were a superior race called "gold" and they feared a world where low IQ whites take over...and that was exactly what happened. Would a white person care what a gold person thought a century ago? No...because it would be the natural order of how things progressed.

Stop worrying about the end of the white race...you can't control it and it might be for the best...either way...you won't know...you'll be dead by then.

Londoner wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:49 am

Seleucus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:22 am No. No one is going to confuse Orientals with Whites. But, there is some overlap, like the Sami who live in Scandinavia but have slanty eyes and round faces.

Let me have another go at explaining this to you.

Suppose we discovered a new island. On that island live some people; they all have the same coloured skin, the same shaped eyes, the same sort of hair, speak the same language and have the same religion, they also share a genetic marker. Are they the same race?

The answer is no. If you isolate any group, the same thing will happen - and quite quickly.

Think of dogs. The 'Alaskan Klee Kai' is highly distinctive, but that does not mean it represents some original 'race' of dogs, to be contrasted with ordinary dogs which have become mongrelised. On the contrary, the 'Alaskan Klee Kai' only dates from the 1980s. It is the mongrels that are the original dog. And if the new breed was allowed to mate freely, it would revert to an ordinary dog even faster than it was created.

So, you have got it all completely back to front. Any visible difference between 'Orientals' and 'Whites' is recent, and superficial, which we can see because if they get together and have children then what you claim above is not longer true; we cannot tell which group they belong to.

So the fact of ligers means that lions and tigers never really existed? The fact of Haitian Creole means that French never really existed?

You don't need to convince me of the post-modern critique of essentialism, I already get it. I also already agree that races are very largely political power constructs.

The real world relevance is that while in theory an immigrant of the Chinese race to America might come to love democracy, develop a sense of creativity and initiative, come to value health and fitness and nature as do real White men. But what is actually happening is Chinese are living in their Chinatowns, speaking Chinese, hold authoritarian communist political views and vote Democrat, are burning with racist hatred of White people, spend all their time indoors so they're pale and weak and have bad eyes. That's the racial reality. If too many of these Chinese get into North America and too many Muslims into Europe we are not going to have Western societies any more, or at best we're going to have radically divided countries.

You can make your non-essentialist arguments for a lot of things, and sure it is true at a certain level, yet, we generally can speak of men and women, we can generally speak of able-bodied people, and straight people and children and adults. And it's okay to say, hey, "I'm an adult". "I'm a straight White male". That's morally okay to say that and to take an interest in the culture and identity that goes along with it.

'Goes along with it?' What does that mean? That there is some sort of genetic connection between being a heterosexual male and....what? Speaking a particular language? Enjoying cricket? Being lactose intolerant? It just makes no sense.

---

By saying 'the apex of human civilization was largely in the West' he means to imply that those of us living in the west now can claim a sort of credit for it. For example, I can think:

Einstein lived in Europe, I live in Europe, therefore I am like Einstein.

Alas; no.

These is a connection between heterosexual males and pants for example. There is a whole world of male culture, and we call that gender.

Just the same, my grandmother was Greek. There is a whole world of Greek culture. Yes, I am fully aware that there is no more mongrel race on Earth than the Greeks, they are mixed with just about every other peoples in the old world. And yet, I, like millions of others stand proud in our Greekness. We draw on the wisdom of Plato, on the determination of Leonidas, on the might of Hercules, intrepid like Jason!

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:03 amadd their cultural assets to Anglo Saxon cultural assets.

I'm all for syncretism, but the fact is that "culture enrichment" has become a punch-line.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:25 amthe point is that cultures change over time so claiming race as a source for current circumstances is pretty much bollocks.

My grandmother was Greek. There is a whole world of Greek culture. Yes, I am fully aware that there is no more mongrel race on Earth than the Greeks, they are mixed with just about every other peoples in the old world. And yet, I, like millions of others stand proud in our Greekness. We draw on the wisdom of Plato, on the determination of Leonidas, on the might of Hercules, intrepid like Jason!

Given that most countries control their immigration

While in theory an immigrant of the Chinese race to America might come to love democracy, develop a sense of creativity and initiative, come to value health and fitness and nature as do real White men. But what is actually happening is Chinese are living in their Chinatowns, speaking Chinese, hold authoritarian communist political views and vote Democrat, are burning with racist hatred of White people, spend all their time indoors so they're pale and weak and have bad eyes. That's the racial reality. If too many of these Chinese get into North America and too many Muslims into Europe we are not going to have Western societies any more, or at best we're going to have radically divided countries.

artisticsolution wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:48 pm

Seleucus wrote: If current rates of immigration continue White countries like Canada and the United States will become authoritarian, low IQ, non-environmentalist, non-artistic, non-sporting, etc.

So? Even if this were true...which it is not...but even if it were...mothers would still tuck their babies in at night, the world would still reproduce, people would still seek adventure, money, fame, etc.

So what if whites were completely wiped off the face of the world? So you'd be brown....you wouldn't know any different.

Think about it this way...what if there were a superior race called "gold" and they feared a world where low IQ whites take over...and that was exactly what happened. Would a white person care what a gold person thought a century ago? No...because it would be the natural order of how things progressed.

Stop worrying about the end of the white race...you can't control it and it might be for the best...either way...you won't know...you'll be dead by then.

I understand that many White people have become essentially culturally suicidal. They don't care about the future of their people. They no longer care about the amazing accomplishments of their race over thousands of years; they don't care about health and fitness, nor nature, nor freedom, nor self-determination, nor democracy, nor lunar landings, not progress, nor art, nor all the other values and accomplishments of the West; instead, lost in relativistic nihilism, they desire to be replaced. But a whole new generation of White men and women are waking up out of that Post-War malaise, and we are vivacious and determined!!

Seleucus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:02 pm So the fact of ligers means that lions and tigers never really existed?

Lions and tigers are different species. Breeds of dogs are all the same species, so are different types of human.

The fact of Haitian Creole means that French never really existed?

French is a language.

You don't need to convince me of the post-modern critique of essentialism, I already get it. I also already agree that races are very largely political power constructs.

No, I don't think you get it at all. If you did, you wouldn't write:

The real world relevance is that while in theory an immigrant of the Chinese race to America might come to love democracy, develop a sense of creativity and initiative, come to value health and fitness and nature as do real White men...

There are no 'real white men'. White(ish) skinned people have white(ish) skin. That's all. You might as well talk of 'real right handed men' or 'real lactose intolerant men'.

But what is actually happening is Chinese are living in their Chinatowns, speaking Chinese, hold authoritarian communist political views and vote Democrat, are burning with racist hatred of White people, spend all their time indoors so they're pale and weak and have bad eyes. That's the racial reality.

Now you are descending into self-parody.

These is a connection between heterosexual males and pants for example. There is a whole world of male culture, and we call that gender.

You still do not understand the difference between correlation and causation. No; there is no 'connection' between heterosexual men and pants, such that one causes the other. This seems to be what you are stuck on. It is possible to be a heterosexual male and not wear pants, and it is possible to wear pants and be a homosexual male or even a woman!

I wonder if you have some genuine cognitive problem with this.

Just the same, my grandmother was Greek. There is a whole world of Greek culture. Yes, I am fully aware that there is no more mongrel race on Earth than the Greeks, they are mixed with just about every other peoples in the old world. And yet, I, like millions of others stand proud in our Greekness. We draw on the wisdom of Plato, on the determination of Leonidas, on the might of Hercules, intrepid like Jason!

I wish you would draw on the logic of Aristotle.

Try to grasp, there is a single race of humans; there is less diversity among humans than there is amongst chimpanzees. It isn't that in the 'old world' there were various 'people' who later got mixed up into 'mongrel races'. It is the other way round. I cannot think of any more ways to explain this to you.

Londoner wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:08 pmIt is possible to be a heterosexual male and not wear pants

No actually, it isn't.

Seleucus wrote:My grandmother was Greek. There is a whole world of Greek culture. Yes, I am fully aware that there is no more mongrel race on Earth than the Greeks, they are mixed with just about every other peoples in the old world. And yet, I, like millions of others stand proud in our Greekness. We draw on the wisdom of Plato, on the determination of Leonidas, on the might of Hercules, intrepid like Jason!

The bubbles aren't a race.

While in theory an immigrant of the Chinese race to America might come to love democracy, develop a sense of creativity and initiative, come to value health and fitness and nature as do real White men. But what is actually happening is Chinese are living in their Chinatowns, speaking Chinese, hold authoritarian communist political views and vote Democrat, are burning with racist hatred of White people, spend all their time indoors so they're pale and weak and have bad eyes. That's the racial reality. If too many of these Chinese get into North America and too many Muslims into Europe we are not going to have Western societies any more, or at best we're going to have radically divided countries.

Is this an example of bubble wisdom? What a sad little troll you are. Isn't it time for you to go bend your knee to Allah?