Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote:

thedoc wrote:Some of those "ism's" are not considered to be religions, especially by those who believe them.

Oh, true: but they may not be right about that.

But that is not the question, If they really are a religion, "Do they deny the existence of a God?"

thedoc wrote:

Immanuel Can wrote:

thedoc wrote:Some of those "ism's" are not considered to be religions, especially by those who believe them.

Oh, true: but they may not be right about that.

But that is not the question, If they really are a religion, "Do they deny the existence of a God?"

Sometimes when you two guys get chatting the conversation is fascinating.

Immanuel Can wrote:

Noax wrote:But you're asking us to stand at a distance and say the competing claims say nothing to us.

Ha. I never said that, and never would, as a matter of fact. I think it's best to know what you're believing, and what you're choosing not to believe. Standing at a distance doesn't give one that.

However, at the end of the day, what have I to do with it, one way or another? I doubt anyone suffered under the delusion that I'm God. So even were I a complete hypocrite about this, it would remain the fact that dismissing me does not dismiss God. What He says, every person must face; for it is not to me they will give answer.

But an answer they will give, most certainly. We all will -- just as I will answer for what I have chosen to believe, so will everybody else. All I can advise is, be prepared to answer.

But those who deny God's existence claim that they will not have to answer, and so do not prepare for the question.

Harbal wrote:

thedoc wrote:

Immanuel Can wrote: Oh, true: but they may not be right about that.

But that is not the question, If they really are a religion, "Do they deny the existence of a God?"

Sometimes when you two guys get chatting the conversation is fascinating.

I'm glad that you are enjoying and following the conversation, perhaps you will learn something.

Greta wrote:I've read enough of it. Don't you know that many secularists have had the Bible and its memes shoved down their throats since early childhood?

Well, memes don't save anyone, of course. Truth does. An "shoving things down people's throats" is not the business anyone needs to be in.

But I wonder: in all that you claim you have heard, do you know enough of what God has said to know what you need to know? I suppose you may say yes. And if that's true -- I would never know if it wasn't, of course -- then perhaps you have made your choice.

I would only say this: God knows what we have done, and what we know, and what we could have known but chose not to know. You may have an answer for me; but it is not before me you will stand to give your answer.

Will your answer be good enough for Him...and for you, when that day comes?

thedoc wrote:But that is not the question, If they really are a religion, "Do they deny the existence of a God?"

Well, what do you mean by "a god"? If all you meant was a mythical, big-power figure or figures of some kind, then I suppose only some forms of Buddhism and Taoism (but not all) would fit that bill -- more by ignoring the concept than by denying it, though.

However, if you mean not just "a god," but THE God, the real one, the Supreme Being, then lots of religions deny that -- all Pantheisms and Polytheisms, for a start. And then if you go further and point out that the one real God has particular characteristics (as in, say, those spelled out in the Judeo-Christian tradition), then Islam denies that God. And you can see that's true, even though for public relations purposes Islamic people insist their god, Allah, is "the same: as that of Jews and Christians. Allah is a different cat, by characteristics and will, if by nothing else; and neither Christians nor Jews would accept Allah as an alternative to God.

Now, you can see that Islamists know it, because they slit the throats of other monotheists, including Christians. They killed over 100,000 of them last year, by the lowest count. And as for the Jews, well, you know how Islamists love them; they want to see them all "pushed into the sea," to use their pet phrase...So if Islam's god was "the same" as that of Jews and Christians, and if Islamists believed that, I think you can see that none of what they do would be happening.

That's a pretty good list of religions that deny the One True God, I would say.

Immanuel Can wrote: Will your answer be good enough for Him...and for you, when that day comes?

Or will God be merciful and accept the denial of those who so choose? I'm glad I don't have to decide, I don't know that I could be as merciful as God.

thedoc wrote:But those who deny God's existence claim that they will not have to answer, and so do not prepare for the question.

Quite right. Tragic for them, really.

It's a terrifyingly high-stakes game of the game children play -- they cover their own eyes, and then say, "You can't see me." For what difference would it make if we refuse to "see" God when He exists?

What the Word of God says is this: "...whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God..." (Romans 3:19).

"All the world [will] become accountable to God." I didn't say it. I just believe it. But since it is the truth, how would disbelieving it ever save anyone from it?

Their response is not just futile, but ultimately spiritually suicidal. To point that out is the greatest kindness we can possibly do to someone.

Immanuel Can wrote:

thedoc wrote:But that is not the question, If they really are a religion, "Do they deny the existence of a God?"

Well, what do you mean by "a god"? If all you meant was a mythical, big-power figure or figures of some kind, then I suppose only some forms of Buddhism and Taoism (but not all) would fit that bill -- more by ignoring the concept than by denying it, though.

However, if you mean not just "a god," but THE God, the real one, the Supreme Being, then lots of religions deny that -- all Pantheisms and Polytheisms, for a start. And then if you go further and point out that the one real God has particular characteristics (as in, say, those spelled out in the Judeo-Christian tradition), then Islam denies that God. And you can see that's true, even though for public relations purposes Islamic people insist their god, Allah, is "the same: as that of Jews and Christians. Allah is a different cat, by characteristics and will, if by nothing else; and neither Christians nor Jews would accept Allah as an alternative to God.

Now, you can see that Islamists know it, because they slit the throats of other monotheists, including Christians. They killed over 100,000 of them last year, by the lowest count. And as for the Jews, well, you know how Islamists love them; they want to see them all "pushed into the sea," to use their pet phrase...So if Islam's god was "the same" as that of Jews and Christians, and if Islamists believed that, I think you can see that none of what they do would be happening.

That's a pretty good list of religions that deny the One True God, I would say.

At this point I don't care what God they claim or worship, do they worship God in any form?
To start with I am asking if a religion denies the existence of "a God", then we can address the question of whether it is the correct God or not.

thedoc wrote:Or will God be merciful and accept the denial of those who so choose?

What does it mean to "accept a denial"? Does it mean to subvert it, and say to them, "Well, you didn't want me, and you preferred your own way; but because that was such a bad idea, I'm going to override your will and force you into Heaven?" (John Locke didn't think God would do that. I don't either, and we probably have the same reason.) Or does "accept the denial" mean that at last, if people are determined to have no part of God, He says to them with great sadness, "I accept your decision"?

Jesus Himself spoke of those who would believe in Him and those who would refuse, saying,

"But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
(Matthew 12:36-37)

Some will be "condemned," condemned by their own decision and free choice, as evidenced by the careless words they spoke. What I'm saying right now, though, is what Jesus also said,

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
(John 5:24)

It's just time to decide, that's all; the decision to be with or apart from God will be made by us, free agents choosing to go our way or His.

thedoc wrote:To start with I am asking if a religion denies the existence of "a God", then we can address the question of whether it is the correct God or not.

Okay. Then I would say that the answer is that some forms of Buddhism and Taoism (along, of course, with Atheism, Humanism, Communism, Secular Liberalism, etc. of course, which perhaps you don't regard as "religious" but I would, so we'll leave them aside for the moment) do conduct their business without reference to a god concept of any kind. Some other forms of Buddhism and Taoism do have "gods" and "spirits" associated with them. So it's a mixed bag there.

It seems to me that neither Buddhism nor Taoism requires any view of a god or gods. It's optional, at most.

Immanuel Can wrote:...do you know enough of what God has said to know what you need to know? I suppose you may say yes. And if that's true -- I would never know if it wasn't, of course -- then perhaps you have made your choice.

I don't know of anything God has said, only what people claim God said.

Immanuel Can wrote:I would only say this: God knows what we have done, and what we know, and what we could have known but chose not to know. You may have an answer for me; but it is not before me you will stand to give your answer.

If God know our choices then it also knows exactly the processes that either made the choice inevitable or subjected the choice to chaotic influences.

To project that the formation of human ideation is beyond God, who is then judged based the performance of the resultant "black box" is a rather meagre imagining. If I was going to imagine a God, I'd imagine a consciousness to which our thoughts, emotions and circumstances are completely transparent, which is capable of personally attending everything at once rather than being limited to singular focus in time.

If such a god exist, it would be exceptionally relaxed about our foibles, even Adolph Hitler's. From such a deity's perspective AH's soul would have simply been on an exceptionally wild and entropic journey, as is surely inevitable at times through sheer probability.

Greta wrote:If such a god exist, it would be exceptionally relaxed about our foibles, even Adolph Hitler's...

What are you willing to wager on that?

Immanuel Can wrote: Or does "accept the denial" mean that at last, if people are determined to have no part of God, He says to them with great sadness, "I accept your decision"?

I don't know what God will do in the end, and I don't claim to know. I just trust that God will have my best interest in mind and will do the best God can for me.

You are beginning to sound like Brian, who says if you don't believe as I do, you are condemned to hell. It's not my decision to make, and I don't think it's your's either.

Immanuel Can wrote:

Greta wrote:If such a god exist, it would be exceptionally relaxed about our foibles, even Adolph Hitler's...

What are you willing to wager on that?

If I took Pascal's wager seriously I would be a theist and agreeing with you. But logically, what kind of deity would be so impotent and gullible as to fail to see through such a gambit?