What are concepts according to materialism?

[raw_thought]

I defined all my terms, over and over. PLEASE take the time to understand my posts and not just skim over them because you have something "clever" to say!

[raw_thought]

Yes, the visualized triangle is an example of qualia.
I do not have to explain what concepts are when I say that "neurons firing does not equal the concept "beauty" etc.
Similarly, if there is a emu in a room (and I do not know what an emu is), I can still say that it is not an elephant.

Of course you don't 'have to' explain anything. The question is, why won't you? We will start to think that you don't know what a concept or a quale is if you cannot describe it.

Ummm...So if I see an emu and do not know what an emu is, I cannot say that it is not an elephant????

[raw_thought]

My definition of "quale" is the one everyone agrees with (definitions are conventions).
A quale is a subjective experience. Since materialists do not believe in subjective experiences (qualia) and that only objective reality exists, they do not believe in feelings.

[Ginkgo]

Yes, the visualized triangle is an example of qualia.
I do not have to explain what concepts are when I say that "neurons firing does not equal the concept "beauty" etc.
Similarly, if there is a emu in a room (and I do not know what an emu is), I can still say that it is not an elephant.

Perhaps we need to sort this bit out.

The term "beauty" is an example of qualia for proponents of qualia. However, the visualization of a triangle is not considered to to be an example of qualia because such visualizations have a casual and therefore physical explanation. In other words, visualizing triangles can be explained in terms of processing through multiple levels of representations.

You seem to be saying there is no difference between subjective experience when it comes to visualizing a triangle and "what it is like" to visualize a triangle (qualia).

[raw_thought]

Even if neurons firing causes me to visualize a triangle (and they probably do) that does not mean that my visualized triangle is a physical object. Similarly, one can say that being stabbed causes death. But that does not mean that the definition of stabbing is death.

[raw_thought]

The visualized triangle is a subjective experience. No one can see my triangle except me. It is a private experience, a quale.

[Wyman]

Even if neurons firing causes me to visualize a triangle (and they probably do) that does not mean that my visualized triangle is a physical object. Similarly, one can say that being stabbed causes death. But that does not mean that the definition of stabbing is death.

Again, no one said it is a physical object. What do you mean by physical object? I don't think of light waves or photons as physical objects either, but I regard them as physical.

Gingko made a distinction between subjective experience and qualia. Do you accept this distinction? If not, then you have that in common with materialists, except they subsume qualia under subjective experience (which is physically explained) and you subsume subjective experience under qualia (which is solipsism).

[Hobbes' Choice]

Even if neurons firing causes me to visualize a triangle (and they probably do) that does not mean that my visualized triangle is a physical object. Similarly, one can say that being stabbed causes death. But that does not mean that the definition of stabbing is death.

You are missing the point by assuming a dualism that you have no warrant to assume. What you have is question begging nonsense.

A conceived triangle is not just 'firing neurones', and no materialist would say it is. But whatever it is - without a thorough and workable theory of what you mean by "causes ME to see a triangle" with the assumption that you are somehow DIFFERENT, or separate from the matter and energy of which your body and brain comprises you are just refuting a thing with no alternative.

Firing neurones are part of you; not separate from ~"you", and so saying firing neurones cause me to see a triangle is absurd unless you are going to say what you mean by "you" as distinct from the neurones.
What you are in effect saying is that "YOU" are not a physical object. But you are saying it without offering any theory.

You have continued to avoid my question, which I have repeated already.

[Ginkgo]

The visualized triangle is a subjective experience. No one can see my triangle except me. It is a private experience, a quale.

The problem is that the above would create a huge problem for neuro-science. Qualia is considered to be a quality of experience, not the experience itself. Imagining a triangle can be explained in terms of cause and effect. In other words, in terms of neural mechanisms. Qualia are non-reducible, non-physical properties of experience. If all experiences were regarded as non-reducible, non-physical then we couldn't have a science of consciousness.

[Wyman]

Firing neurones are part of you; not separate from ~"you", and so saying firing neurones cause me to see a triangle is absurd unless you are going to say what you mean by "you" as distinct from the neurones.
What you are in effect saying is that "YOU" are not a physical object.

That's a great way of looking at it.

I don't think he'll see that he assumes dualism to prove dualism (but he does)

[raw_thought]

Basically your argument is, dualism is true. You say it is false.therefore you are wrong. That is not an argument.
So you are saying that when one visualizes a triangle,there is an object in your brain,that is physical and takes the form of a triangle. When you visualize green, part of your brain turns green. When I think, if you had a sound amplifier, you could hear my thoughts...I disagree.

[raw_thought]

Of couse I am different then my neurons firing. My love for my wife does not equal my neurons firing. Pain does not equal (is and only is) neurons firing. It is a feeling. OK one can say that neurons firing causes me to feel pain but then one would not be a eliminative materialist. If pain is and only is neurons firing (no feeling, qualia) then who cares about torture. There is nothing wrong with causing a few C-fibers to fire up. Torture is not even torture if it is not painful.

[raw_thought]

The visualized triangle is a subjective experience. No one can see my triangle except me. It is a private experience, a quale.

The problem is that the above would create a huge problem for neuro-science. Qualia is considered to be a quality of experience, not the experience itself. Imagining a triangle can be explained in terms of cause and effect. In other words, in terms of neural mechanisms. Qualia are non-reducible, non-physical properties of experience. If all experiences were regarded as non-reducible, non-physical then we couldn't have a science of consciousness.

It might create difficulties but the truth usually does. It is the obvious truth that no one other then myself can see my visualized triangle.

[raw_thought]

" a conceived triangle is not just 'firing neurons', and no materialist will say it is."
Hobbes choice

Actually anyone that does not believe in qualia (materialists) must say that my visualized triangle is and only is neurons firing. Materialists believe that only objective facts exist. My visualized triangle is subjective and private. Two properties that the materialist rejects as nonsense.

[raw_thought]

The problem with materialists is that they are disingenuous. They redefine feelings as brain states. And then say that they believe in "feelings" because they believe in brain states.
Similarly, I am an agnostic. However, if I redefine "God" as a rock, I can then (disingenuously ) claim that I believe in God because I believe that rocks exist.