Philosophy Now Forum

uwot wrote:

ReliStuPhD wrote: it's still easy to show that you've presented a false dilemma because there is the third option that God did create the world to which you refer and humans are mistaken with respect to the contention that not everyone is saved.

You're right. I hadn't considered that.

For what it's worth (and this goes to thedoc's reply as well), there are Christian theologians who argue that the existence of some kind of eternal Hell is inconsistent with God's nature. The arguments take a whole host of forms, but they usually boil down to something like "God has an eternity and won't give up." Some go so far as to suggest even Satan himself will come around. I'm sure some would argue that these are just liberal fantasies, but it at least points to some understandings of God that don't assign souls to Hell for an eternity. (There is also an emerging body of scholarship that suggests Christians' entire understanding of Hell is based on incorrect understandings of the relevant passages.) Interesting stuff. Not sure where I come down on all of it, but I definitely prefer that God to the one who tosses people into Hell for an eternity and seems not to care too much about it.

ReliStuPhD wrote:

uwot wrote:

ReliStuPhD wrote: it's still easy to show that you've presented a false dilemma because there is the third option that God did create the world to which you refer and humans are mistaken with respect to the contention that not everyone is saved.

You're right. I hadn't considered that.

For what it's worth (and this goes to thedoc's reply as well), there are Christian theologians who argue that the existence of some kind of eternal Hell is inconsistent with God's nature. The arguments take a whole host of forms, but they usually boil down to something like "God has an eternity and won't give up." Some go so far as to suggest even Satan himself will come around. I'm sure some would argue that these are just liberal fantasies, but it at least points to some understandings of God that don't assign souls to Hell for an eternity. (There is also an emerging body of scholarship that suggests Christians' entire understanding of Hell is based on incorrect understandings of the relevant passages.) Interesting stuff. Not sure where I come down on all of it, but I definitely prefer that God to the one who tosses people into Hell for an eternity and seems not to care too much about it.

The bible says hell is at the core of the earth. If a soul has gravity, do the math. Then the earth will crash into sun, the "lake of fire" as they say.

All you can do is stay connected to the Source, which connects you to everything else. We don’t know how to be perfect, but we can stay in union. “If you remain in me and I remain in you,” says Jesus,...

"Stay"? "Remain?" Interesting words. Yet we can easily see that you can only "stay" or "remain" where you already are.

Then I guess the most pressing question is, "What's your relationship to the Source right now?"

Yon Yalvin wrote:After trolling around on this board it appears as if there are a few theists but I've yet to spot a Christian. To further define myself, I'd say (for my purposes here) that I am a philosophical, Calvinist, Christian theist.

By philosophical I mean that I hold a degree in philosophy and so am familiar with philosophical issues and discourse.

By Calvinist I mean that I generally agree with reformed confessions of faith and systems of theology.

By Christian I mean that I confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of all peoples and nations and the only mediator between God and man.

By theist I mean that I believe in a divine person who created all things and sustains everything He has made.

If you ever wanted to ask a self-styled philosopher, Calvinist, Christian, or theist anything this thread is your chance.

If Jesus is the Lord of all people's and nations, then why do most people follow Satan—the father of lies?
If there is this divine person, then why doesn't he let us see him?
And if he created nature and us, why are there so many theists who are denying that we are destroying our natural habitat and, by extension, ourselves.
Why is it that only pastors get to talk during church?
Why is it that He requires absolute obedience to the exclusion of reason?
What right do men have to tell women what to do with their sexuality and womb?

I can't speak for Yon, and won't try. But do you mind if I take a whack at your questions?

If Jesus is the Lord of all people's and nations, then why do most people follow Satan—the father of lies?

Because most people have no relationship to the Lord, but prefer to follow themselves, their friends, or the way of the world around them. Free beings can do that...they can choose what they do. But if the Bible tells truth, then at the end of the day you will indeed find out the warrant of His claim. (see John 5:21-23, Revelation 20:12)

If there is this divine person, then why doesn't he let us see him?

He did. His name is Jesus. (John 14:9)

And if he created nature and us, why are there so many theists who are denying that we are destroying our natural habitat and, by extension, ourselves.

I don't think they are. Everybody knows what litter, or air pollution, or radioactive contamination are, and I've never yet met a Theist who had any trouble acknowledging such things. Now, if you're referring to climate change, it looks like the jury's still out on that one. But either way, not much is at stake for Theism. For capitalism, maybe. But for Theism, nothing.

Why is it that only pastors get to talk during church?

It's a very bad habit they should get out of.

Why is it that He requires absolute obedience to the exclusion of reason?

He doesn't. He's a God of reason. He gave us reason as a faculty, and He says, "Come, let us reason together..." (Isaiah 1:18)

Those were easy. Got more?

Immanuel Can wrote:I can't speak for Yon, and won't try. But do you mind if I take a whack at your questions?

If Jesus is the Lord of all people's and nations, then why do most people follow Satan—the father of lies?

Because most people have no relationship to the Lord, but prefer to follow themselves, their friends, or the way of the world around them. Free beings can do that...they can choose what they do. But if the Bible tells truth, then at the end of the day you will indeed find out the warrant of His claim. (see John 5:21-23, Revelation 20:12)

If there is this divine person, then why doesn't he let us see him?

He did. His name is Jesus. (John 14:9)

And if he created nature and us, why are there so many theists who are denying that we are destroying our natural habitat and, by extension, ourselves.

I don't think they are. Everybody knows what litter, or air pollution, or radioactive contamination are, and I've never yet met a Theist who had any trouble acknowledging such things. Now, if you're referring to climate change, it looks like the jury's still out on that one. But either way, not much is at stake for Theism. For capitalism, maybe. But for Theism, nothing.

Why is it that only pastors get to talk during church?

It's a very bad habit they should get out of.

Why is it that He requires absolute obedience to the exclusion of reason?

He doesn't. He's a God of reason. He gave us reason as a faculty, and He says, "Come, let us reason together..." (Isaiah 1:18)

Those were easy. Got more?

I think that the bible is a myth. Could you give another argument for your claims.

Systematic wrote:
Why is it that only pastors get to talk during church?

What right do men have to tell women what to do with their sexuality and womb?

I'm not sure which church you attend, but in the church I attend a lot of different people speak in church, the pastor does deliver a sermon, if that is what you are referring to, but then that is what she was hired to do.

Men don't have any right to tell a woman what to do with their womb, but they do have some say on what happens to what is sometimes in that womb. And contrary to popular opinion by some women, what is sometimes in the womb is not part of the woman's body, it's a separate individual within her body, and that woman has a responsibility to care for and protect that individual person.

Systematic wrote: I think that the bible is a myth. Could you give another argument for your claims.

Unless you are working under the mistaken idea that a myth is false, the answers given were adequate. Myths are truth, you just need to know how to read them and where to find the truth.

I think that the bible is a myth. Could you give another argument for your claims.

What do you perceive me to have been claiming? I thought I was just answering questions you gave me.

Oops. I see I missed one. Thanks, thedoc.

What right do men have to tell women what to do with their sexuality and womb?

What thedoc said.

thedoc wrote:

Systematic wrote: I think that the bible is a myth. Could you give another argument for your claims.

Unless you are working under the mistaken idea that a myth is false, the answers given were adequate. Myths are truth, you just need to know how to read them and where to find the truth.

There are undeniable truths in myths, but those truths are in support of lies. No one says that there are no earthquakes, but that doesn't mean that we should believe that they are caused by Atlas.

Immanuel Can wrote:

I think that the bible is a myth. Could you give another argument for your claims.

What do you perceive me to have been claiming? I thought I was just answering questions you gave me.

Sorry, I guess I was just expecting true answers.

Sorry, I guess I was just expecting true answers.

Why are you sorry? Did you misunderstand something?

I'll reframe my earlier question: You asked,

Could you give another argument for your claims.

I asked what "claims" you wished me to defend?

So far as I can see, it was you who posed questions to Yon, and I answered your questions honestly. Was Yon making a "claim" to which you were referring? Because clearly I did not do anything but respond to questions. Was there a particular one to which you were referring by the word "claim"?

Systematic wrote:
Why is it that only pastors get to talk during church?

What right do men have to tell women what to do with their sexuality and womb?

thedoc wrote:I'm not sure which church you attend, but in the church I attend a lot of different people speak in church, the pastor does deliver a sermon, if that is what you are referring to, but then that is what she was hired to do.

Does this pastor ask questions or ask for other people's opinions during the sermon?

thedoc wrote:Men don't have any right to tell a woman what to do with their womb, but they do have some say on what happens to what is sometimes in that womb. And contrary to popular opinion by some women, what is sometimes in the womb is not part of the woman's body, it's a separate individual within her body, and that woman has a responsibility to care for and protect that individual person.

I knew of a family where the father convinced his pubescent daughter to sleep with him, and he got her pregnant before anyone figured it out. Do you think that it is appropriate for someone to convince her that she should carry the baby to term?

I know that adultery and fornication has come to mean both men and women, but in the Bible it was usually about the women getting into trouble.

If Jesus is the Lord of all people's and nations, then why do most people follow Satan—the father of lies?

Immanuel Can wrote:Because most people have no relationship to the Lord, but prefer to follow themselves, their friends, or the way of the world around them. Free beings can do that...they can choose what they do. But if the Bible tells truth, then at the end of the day you will indeed find out the warrant of His claim. (see John 5:21-23, Revelation 20:12)

It is a contradiction to claim that Jesus is Lord and that Jesus is honest when everyone follows liars. So is Jesus the liar who rules the world, or is he not ruler of the world?

If there is this divine person, then why doesn't he let us see him?

Immanuel Can wrote:He did. His name is Jesus. (John 14:9)

Have you actually seen this Jesus fellow? And is he God?

And if he created nature and us, why are there so many theists who are denying that we are destroying our natural habitat and, by extension, ourselves.

Immanuel Can wrote:I don't think they are. Everybody knows what litter, or air pollution, or radioactive contamination are, and I've never yet met a Theist who had any trouble acknowledging such things. Now, if you're referring to climate change, it looks like the jury's still out on that one. But either way, not much is at stake for Theism. For capitalism, maybe. But for Theism, nothing.

So saying that we should respect God who made nature rather than nature itself is not what allows capitalism to wreck the environment?

Why is it that only pastors get to talk during church?

Immanuel Can wrote:It's a very bad habit they should get out of.

Yes, but why do they do it? I would wager that they don't want to have people think for themselves.

Why is it that He requires absolute obedience to the exclusion of reason?

Immanuel Can wrote:He doesn't. He's a God of reason. He gave us reason as a faculty, and He says, "Come, let us reason together..." (Isaiah 1:18)

This assumes that the Bible is true in stating that God created us and that he is not subverting our reason while seeming to make us more reasonable.

See what I mean by "claims" yet?