Philosophy Now Forum

Fairy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 9:04 am

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 10:16 pm
Indeed, but if objective morality, immortality and salvation are your thing, you will certainly need one or another essential meaning to anchor that precious Self of yours to.

Immortality can never be 'someone's' thing. A 'someone' is just be a belief, it's a thought.

Immortality is already the case, it's already this life appearing as death and birth both simultaneously, as cells die they are also simultaneously replicating and replacing old for new as death appears as life, so too does life appear as death - absent of any known beginning or end.

Birth and Death are the same thing, they just differ in appearance that's all, ultimately, birth and death are fundamentally one and the same Infinite Immortal Life.

When you conflate immortal with eternal your argument fails. You have the right vision but the wrong word.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:27 am Look, if you and others here can convince yourself this is the case and it allows you to deal with death given a bit more equanimity, then good for you. Whatever works when it comes to confronting what may well be oblivion.

I like being dead. I love oblivion.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 11:40 am

Fairy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 9:04 am

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 10:16 pm
Indeed, but if objective morality, immortality and salvation are your thing, you will certainly need one or another essential meaning to anchor that precious Self of yours to.

Immortality can never be 'someone's' thing. A 'someone' is just be a belief, it's a thought.

Immortality is already the case, it's already this life appearing as death and birth both simultaneously, as cells die they are also simultaneously replicating and replacing old for new as death appears as life, so too does life appear as death - absent of any known beginning or end.

Birth and Death are the same thing, they just differ in appearance that's all, ultimately, birth and death are fundamentally one and the same Infinite Immortal Life.

When you conflate immortal with eternal your argument fails. You have the right vision but the wrong word.

I never said the word eternal. Or implied immortal is eternal. Or implied eternal is immortal.

So I've absolutely no idea what you are going on about.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:27 am
Right. What could possibly be the difference between birth and death. Metaphysically, say.

Metacognition reveals there's (Just This) not knowable, not a thing, not an entity, no solidity, nowhere to land aliveness that was never separated from death.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:46 am living forever, having an immortal, individual soul. It's more like Buddhism, with no self. And it's an immortality in the moment.

It's an immortality in the moment as there is no outside the immediacy of this present/presence.
While the body is as immortal as this immediate present. The soul is a transient byproduct of the brain that is the body. I'm only saying the body is immortal in reference to what Einstein said about nothing can be created or destroyed.

Feelings, sensations, emotions, thoughts, and ideas are all a transient byproduct of brain braining. No concept known as 'I' was ever aware at the moment of their birth, nor at the moment of their death, nor at the moment they fall asleep, nor at the moment they awaken from sleep. This is all just a physical brain braining a synthetic reality.


The only thing that is real are you're memories of something that did actually happen, but it's forever gone, including the idea there is an 'I'

'I' only exists as a memory, in memory. Memory cannot be touched physically like the body can. And no matter how much we dissect the body, we will never know what that body is. We will never know what we are looking at until we label it as a known secondary reality upon what is already this unknowing.

So ''knowing'' is self referential thought. Thoughts thinking about thinking. A recursive phenomena.

'I' is an idea, or a feeling or an electrical firing inside the brain that cannot be touched physically. Thought and physical are not the same thing. Only The body has it's own intelligence and the body at the same time cannot control how it thinks and feels at any given moment, because the brain is only ever responding and reacting to the physical environment triggering memories it has already stored, to then inform in the present the impression that is the illusory continuity of a knowing now, which is actually not now, but a memory of what's already come and gone.

Fairy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 1:58 pm

iambiguous wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:27 am Look, if you and others here can convince yourself this is the case and it allows you to deal with death given a bit more equanimity, then good for you. Whatever works when it comes to confronting what may well be oblivion.

I like being dead. I love oblivion.

Well, sure, that does make all the difference in the world. Now, for those of us here who, for whatever personal reasons, still like being alive and dread the prospect of nothingness for all of eternity, what's to like about either one of them.

Fairy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 2:09 pm

iambiguous wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:27 am
Right. What could possibly be the difference between birth and death. Metaphysically, say.

Metacognition reveals there's (Just This) not knowable, not a thing, not an entity, no solidity, nowhere to land aliveness that was never separated from death.

Okay, fine, tongue in cheek it is then.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:13 am

Fairy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 1:58 pm

iambiguous wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:27 am Look, if you and others here can convince yourself this is the case and it allows you to deal with death given a bit more equanimity, then good for you. Whatever works when it comes to confronting what may well be oblivion.

I like being dead. I love oblivion.

Well, sure, that does make all the difference in the world. Now, for those of us here who, for whatever personal reasons, still like being alive and dread the prospect of nothingness for all of eternity, what's to like about either one of them.

Fairy just likes the idea of not existing, not 'me' the character, but life - all of life. I mostly wish that LIFE was not happening at all, but it is. I would rather there had been nothing rather than something. Nothing for eternity would have been my ideal. Fairy in character form, doesn't like being alive. But since I am alive and had no choice but to be alive I have to constantly seek to distract myself, entertain myself, the internet has been a massive boredom buster I must say. So often these days I spend most of my day doom scrolling, I get to travel all round the world meeting loads of interesting people without moving a muscle. Then there is forum life, that's another boredom buster. Other than that effortless and cheap activity, the alternative is to stay in bed all day, which is fine, I don't mind it, but then every now and then I need to get out of bed to stretch and of course to go bathroom and eat some food so I don't wither away.

I'm retired now so I can do what I like. But yeah, I've never enjoyed living ever since I realised as young child what an absolute shit show it is.
People might say to me then why don't you off yourself if you don't like being alive. But then that idea feels worse than being alive, so I just endure, knowing I am going to die one day anyway.

When I was a kid I used to lie in bed thinking a lot. Things like 'who am I', and why am I here and shit. One thought that was very profound and prominent and came out of the blue was the weird realisation that I'm here to be conscious of being dead. I feel dead inside, and I'm conscious of that, it's weird to be conscious of being dead. But that's what being alive feels like to me most of the time.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:13 am and dread the prospect of nothingness for all of eternity

"for"?

Alan Watts wrote:When you die, you're not going to have to put up with everlasting non-existence, because that's not an experience. A lot of people are afraid that when they die, they're going to be locked up in a dark room forever, - Try and imagine what it would be like to go to sleep and never wake up. And if you think long enough about that...it will pose the next question. What was it like to wake up after never having gone to sleep? That was when you were born...you see...you...you can't have an experience of nothing so after you're dead the only thing that can happen is the same experience or the same sort of experience as when you were born.

Atla wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:15 am

iambiguous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:13 am and dread the prospect of nothingness for all of eternity

"for"?

Alan Watts wrote:When you die, you're not going to have to put up with everlasting non-existence, because that's not an experience. A lot of people are afraid that when they die, they're going to be locked up in a dark room forever, - Try and imagine what it would be like to go to sleep and never wake up. And if you think long enough about that...it will pose the next question. What was it like to wake up after never having gone to sleep? That was when you were born...you see...you...you can't have an experience of nothing so after you're dead the only thing that can happen is the same experience or the same sort of experience as when you were born.

Alan Watts vision is very similar to mine. I like listening to him.

We cannot experience nothing, and life is all we will ever know.

Every life experience is just one of an infinite life experiences. And that dying is just like going to sleep at night until you wake up with a new body.

Nothing can kill itself, because nothing was born. That's another realisation I've come to make peace with.

Fairy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 2:03 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 11:40 am

Fairy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 9:04 am

Immortality can never be 'someone's' thing. A 'someone' is just be a belief, it's a thought.

Immortality is already the case, it's already this life appearing as death and birth both simultaneously, as cells die they are also simultaneously replicating and replacing old for new as death appears as life, so too does life appear as death - absent of any known beginning or end.

Birth and Death are the same thing, they just differ in appearance that's all, ultimately, birth and death are fundamentally one and the same Infinite Immortal Life.

When you conflate immortal with eternal your argument fails. You have the right vision but the wrong word.

I never said the word eternal. Or implied immortal is eternal. Or implied eternal is immortal.

So I've absolutely no idea what you are going on about.

Then you should inform yourself.

Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:27 am

Atla wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:15 am

iambiguous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:13 am and dread the prospect of nothingness for all of eternity

"for"?

Alan Watts wrote:When you die, you're not going to have to put up with everlasting non-existence, because that's not an experience. A lot of people are afraid that when they die, they're going to be locked up in a dark room forever, - Try and imagine what it would be like to go to sleep and never wake up. And if you think long enough about that...it will pose the next question. What was it like to wake up after never having gone to sleep? That was when you were born...you see...you...you can't have an experience of nothing so after you're dead the only thing that can happen is the same experience or the same sort of experience as when you were born.

Alan Watts vision is very similar to mine. I like listening to him.

We cannot experience nothing, and life is all we will ever know.

Every life experience is just one of an infinite life experiences. And that dying is just like going to sleep at night until you wake up with a new body.

Nothing can kill itself, because nothing was born. That's another realisation I've come to make peace with.

Come to think of it, we nondualists don't fear the state of death/nonexistence itself, because we know that it makes no sense to fear it. That would be a self-contradiction. But I totally forgot that most people don't know this / don't think like this, and really fear it. Hm that's another plus for nondualism I guess.

Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:00 am

iambiguous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:13 am

Fairy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 1:58 pm

I like being dead. I love oblivion.

Well, sure, that does make all the difference in the world. Now, for those of us here who, for whatever personal reasons, still like being alive and dread the prospect of nothingness for all of eternity, what's to like about either one of them.

Fairy just likes the idea of not existing, not 'me' the character, but life - all of life. I mostly wish that LIFE was not happening at all, but it is. I would rather there had been nothing rather than something. Nothing for eternity would have been my ideal. Fairy in character form, doesn't like being alive. But since I am alive and had no choice but to be alive I have to constantly seek to distract myself, entertain myself, the internet has been a massive boredom buster I must say. So often these days I spend most of my day doom scrolling, I get to travel all round the world meeting loads of interesting people without moving a muscle. Then there is forum life, that's another boredom buster. Other than that effortless and cheap activity, the alternative is to stay in bed all day, which is fine, I don't mind it, but then every now and then I need to get out of bed to stretch and of course to go bathroom and eat some food so I don't wither away.

I'm retired now so I can do what I like. But yeah, I've never enjoyed living ever since I realised as young child what an absolute shit show it is.
People might say to me then why don't you off yourself if you don't like being alive. But then that idea feels worse than being alive, so I just endure, knowing I am going to die one day anyway.

When I was a kid I used to lie in bed thinking a lot. Things like 'who am I', and why am I here and shit. One thought that was very profound and prominent and came out of the blue was the weird realisation that I'm here to be conscious of being dead. I feel dead inside, and I'm conscious of that, it's weird to be conscious of being dead. But that's what being alive feels like to me most of the time.

The embodiment of dasein, perhaps?

And, in some respects, I think and feel the same sort of things.

But, let's face it, for most of us, death has always revolved less around what we think about it [philosophically or otherwise], and more around the actual circumstances in our lives. And, of course, the extent to which some are able to genuinely believe in a God, the God, my God. In immortality and salvation.

For those who "here and now" are living a life filled with people they love and with things they are passionate about...work, the arts, sports, politics, food, drink, etc., ...death obliterates it all.

Imagine, for example, being a celebrity with a life that is filled with tons and tons of things worth living for. Someone, say like Bill Maher. He is now 68 years old and an atheist. Or, perhaps, even better, a Woody Allen. He is now 88 years old and an atheist.

Isn't that, for all practical purposes, the way it works in regard to our actual existential death?

That it frightens many doesn't surprise me. Especially those who really do have a lot to lose.

Atla wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 6:00 pm

Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:27 am

Atla wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:15 am
"for"?

Alan Watts vision is very similar to mine. I like listening to him.

We cannot experience nothing, and life is all we will ever know.

Every life experience is just one of an infinite life experiences. And that dying is just like going to sleep at night until you wake up with a new body.

Nothing can kill itself, because nothing was born. That's another realisation I've come to make peace with.

Come to think of it, we nondualists don't fear the state of death/nonexistence itself, because we know that it makes no sense to fear it. That would be a self-contradiction. But I totally forgot that most people don't know this / don't think like this, and really fear it. Hm that's another plus for nondualism I guess.

That someone can actually think themselves into believing something like this -- death and nondualism?! -- is merely a reminder of just how far the human brain can stretch in sustaining psychological defense mechanisms. In fact, some are able to sustain them all the way to the grave.

Well, unless, of course, this all really is just...tongue in cheek?

iambiguous wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:56 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 6:00 pm

Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:27 am

Alan Watts vision is very similar to mine. I like listening to him.

We cannot experience nothing, and life is all we will ever know.

Every life experience is just one of an infinite life experiences. And that dying is just like going to sleep at night until you wake up with a new body.

Nothing can kill itself, because nothing was born. That's another realisation I've come to make peace with.

Come to think of it, we nondualists don't fear the state of death/nonexistence itself, because we know that it makes no sense to fear it. That would be a self-contradiction. But I totally forgot that most people don't know this / don't think like this, and really fear it. Hm that's another plus for nondualism I guess.

That someone can actually think themselves into believing something like this -- death and nondualism?! -- is merely a reminder of just how far the human brain can stretch in sustaining psychological defense mechanisms. In fact, some are able to sustain them all the way to the grave.

Well, unless, of course, this all really is just...tongue in cheek?

I don't believe in reincarnation, otherwise what's your point? Dualists like you are the ones with strange beliefs and in this case a quite detrimental one. My "belief" is pretty much fact.

You won't experience an everlasting nothingness after death, just as you didn't experience an everlasting nothingness before birth. It's symmetrical. There was no you to experience it, there will be no you to experience it. That's not an experience, so nonexistence itself can't be feared. Only what comes before death can be feared.