Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 7:56 pm
We have doctors: why concern oneself with God for healing? We have grocery stores: why ask God for food? We have scientists: why look to God for answers? We have government officials: why ask God to sanctify our marriages and births? We have pension plans: why look to Him in old age? We have cyberspace: why look to God

None that I can think of just as we cannot look to god to explain any atrocity ever committed whether by humans or nature against life itself. In each of these scenarios god is more useless than a landfill which at least contains the possibility of eventually being recycled.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:48 pm

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:00 amEvolution is not a belief

Don't you believe it?

Yes I do. I also believe the world is round, the Sun will come up tomorrow and mountains are ground into clay. You are free to call anything that is the case a belief, but understand that I am content to call a demonstrable fact a fact. Evolution is a fact; animals, plants and all other living things, including human beings, change over time; it is that fact to which theories are applied. Charles Darwin's theory was that evolution is due to natural selection. The theory that God is directing evolution is entirely consistent with the fact, but to say evolution does not happen is demonstrably wrong.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:48 pm

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:00 am"Evolutionism" is your problem, not mine.

Apparently not. I don't believe it.

You miss the point: nobody believes evolutionism, it is a straw man, a theory of evolution made up by creationists who cannot defend their beliefs honestly. Where are these "Evolutionists" who claim there was an "original mating pair", that the soil should be littered with fossils of missing links, that the Earth should be populated by freaks? Your problem is that they don't exist.

Another problem you have is that you are apparently too ashamed to admit what you actually believe. For example:

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:26 pmDo you believe that God created the "original mating pair" like this?
"The Lord God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being...
So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he was asleep, he took part of the man’s side and closed up the place with flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the part he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man."

Since you cannot say no, it is reasonable to infer that you take the account in Genesis literally, but lack the courage to admit it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:24 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:11 pm

But here's what I see: I see you feel you deserved better. And I see you think you (in some sense) should have been allowed to get it. You feel a sense of injustice, aggrievance, unfairness, and cruelty in it all, and you seem to want somebody to know about that.

May I ask you why?

It's either a random roll of the dice that I developed mental illness or there's a God who allowed it to happen.

Right. Obviously.

From my perspective it makes more sense as a random chance occurance

No problem. If that's what makes more sense to you, that's what makes more sense to you. But what no longer makes sense is you complaining as if you've been "done dirt." Nobody's done you wrong. There is no "wrong." So why are you still complaining?

I'm not trying to insult you, Gary; I'm showing you what the logic of that decision entails. If you think there's no God, then there's nobody to blame, and nobody to care about the fact that you've got mental illness, and nothing else that could possibly have been your lot. You're totally out of excuses and places to send the blame.

if there's a God then it doesn't say much flattering of God

What reason have you to suppose that the God you have decided doesn't exist has done anything to you?

But I take your point: there needs to be some explanation of why bad things happen in this world. I don't say "needs" as in "I need," though we all do, but rather that something is missing from any description of the world that doesn't address the fact that a lot of what goes on is, to coin a simplistic phrase, "not-good" stuff. We all feel the urgency of that question, I would say...even if not all of us are dealing with mental illness.

You want there to be a God who created everything and at the same time did not create evils that befall us.

No, I don't, Gary. I believe there is a God, AND He has knowledge of the reasons why particular evils befall us. Nobody here is asking for a "pass" for God on that question...certainly not I.

My point is that if there's a God then that God is responsible for a lot of evil.

Only if God were the only active agency on the Earth. Otherwise, any blame we accord has to be at least split: human's do some evil thing, and some evil things "just happen." And we need an understanding of both, if we want a complete picture of how the world is.

If there's not a God or if God is not a good God, then that would tend to explain the presence of evil better than the notion of a loving God.

Unless God had some sufficient reason for allowing at least some occasions of the phenomena and actions we are speaking of as "evil." And if that were the case, we'd have to think a lot more carefully than if we just take our anger out on Him by deciding to act as if He doesn't exist...as if trying to punish God by refusing to believe in Him...which would mean we actually would believe in Him, but hate Him.

IC, my life is a dumpster fire. You want me to believe there's a God. Ok. Let's say there is. Now what? My life is still a dumpster fire.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:49 pm IC, my life is a dumpster fire. You want me to believe there's a God. Ok. Let's say there is. Now what? My life is still a dumpster fire.

Right. I'm believing you. I know enough about it to take you completely at your word. But before I answer, let me ask you two things about that "dumpster fire." I have to ask, because we don't know each other well enough for me to form any judgment of my own, or to have real insight into what you mean when you say that. So I'm just going to have to take you at your word, okay? And I will.

One, how bad is it -- bad enough that you hate it, but not quite so bad you're willing to do anything to change it? Or is it really what you say, a "dumpster fire," and you're ready to do anything to make it even marginally better? Which way is it?

(I ask, because I've met many, many people who claim to hate their lives...but not enough to change them. There's something about their anger and misery that they are wedded to. Somehow, it consoles them, or gives them a role they find a small measure of satisfaction in occupying, and they won't give it up. Really, they're not ready for change; they're just ready to complain.)

Two, how well is your present response to it serving you? What has it got you, that you want to keep? What makes you want to persist in bitterness, instead of doing something -- anything -- to change it? And if it's not working for you, how about considering doing something different?

(I ask, because many, many people also want change, but don't want to have to change themselves to get it. They're determined that if relief is to come to them, it's only to come on the terms they want to set...and it's not to cost them any change in themselves. They're ready to see their circumstances change, but they're not at all ready to become part of their own solution.)

In other words, just how serious is this, to you? And what are you ready to do to see it change?

tillingborn wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:08 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:48 pm

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:00 amEvolution is not a belief

Don't you believe it?

Yes I do.

Then Evolutionism is a belief.

Evolution is a fact;

No, not even its most ardent advocates think that. It's a theory. And for that matter, it's a historical one, and as such, not repeatable or subject to lab experimentation.

nobody believes evolutionism,

You just said you did.

Another problem you have is that you are apparently too ashamed to admit what you actually believe.

Yes; I'm always so shy and retiring about that.

I've been quite clear what I believe about that. I believe that humans are a unique creation of God, in His own image. They are not the products of time plus chance, not an accident, and certainly not some kind of ex-ape. You don't find that clear enough? Well, I don't know what more to do for you.

Can you spot the difference?

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:00 amEvolution is not a belief

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:14 pmEvolutionism is a belief.

We are talking about two different things: evolution is the change that living organisms undergo over time. Evolutionism is a made up belief that has no followers.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:14 pm

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:00 amEvolution is a fact;

No, not even its most ardent advocates think that.

Yes they do. Again:

tillingborn wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:08 amEvolution is a fact; animals, plants and all other living things, including human beings, change over time; it is that fact to which theories are applied. Charles Darwin's theory was that evolution is due to natural selection. The theory that God is directing evolution is entirely consistent with the fact, but to say evolution does not happen is demonstrably wrong.

Scientists who study evolution are not debating whether living organisms evolve over time, they are researching how they evolve.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:14 pmIt's a theory.

No. Theories about why living organisms evolve are attached to the fact that they do. You are confusing evolution with theories about evolution.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:14 pm

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:00 amnobody believes evolutionism,

You just said you did.

No I didn't. Evolution and "Evolutionism" are different things.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:14 pm

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:00 amAnother problem you have is that you are apparently too ashamed to admit what you actually believe.

Yes; I'm always so shy and retiring about that.

You are only fooling yourself. Anyone following this conversation has already seen you fail to answer the same simple question several times. I expect they will see it once more:

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:26 pmDo you believe that God created the "original mating pair" like this?
"The Lord God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being...
So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he was asleep, he took part of the man’s side and closed up the place with flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the part he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:10 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:49 pm IC, my life is a dumpster fire. You want me to believe there's a God. Ok. Let's say there is. Now what? My life is still a dumpster fire.

Right. I'm believing you. I know enough about it to take you completely at your word. But before I answer, let me ask you two things about that "dumpster fire." I have to ask, because we don't know each other well enough for me to form any judgment of my own, or to have real insight into what you mean when you say that. So I'm just going to have to take you at your word, okay? And I will.

One, how bad is it -- bad enough that you hate it, but not quite so bad you're willing to do anything to change it? Or is it really what you say, a "dumpster fire," and you're ready to do anything to make it even marginally better? Which way is it?

(I ask, because I've met many, many people who claim to hate their lives...but not enough to change them. There's something about their anger and misery that they are wedded to. Somehow, it consoles them, or gives them a role they find a small measure of satisfaction in occupying, and they won't give it up. Really, they're not ready for change; they're just ready to complain.)

Two, how well is your present response to it serving you? What has it got you, that you want to keep? What makes you want to persist in bitterness, instead of doing something -- anything -- to change it? And if it's not working for you, how about considering doing something different?

(I ask, because many, many people also want change, but don't want to have to change themselves to get it. They're determined that if relief is to come to them, it's only to come on the terms they want to set...and it's not to cost them any change in themselves. They're ready to see their circumstances change, but they're not at all ready to become part of their own solution.)

In other words, just how serious is this, to you? And what are you ready to do to see it change?

It's not really my place to interfere, but that sort of thing doesn't usually stop me, so I will.

If Gary is suffering from mental illness, which I seem to remember his saying that he was, then should you be saying this to him? I mean, are you qualified to deal with mental illness?

tillingborn wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 4:24 pm
We are talking about two different things: evolution is the change that living organisms undergo over time. Evolutionism is a made up belief that has no followers.

That's just IC's system of categorising people. They have to be sorted into groups according to what kind of ist they are.

tillingborn wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 4:24 pm Can you spot the difference?

tillingborn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:00 amEvolution is not a belief

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:14 pmEvolutionism is a belief.

We are talking about two different things.

Yes, we are. You're imagining that a theory is "a fact," and as such, exempt from doubt and critique. Thus, it needs no "belief," you think. You think it "just is," so to speak.

But you're not aware that you're believing it. And that, in fact, that is the very reason it seems so "factual" to you. For it is not the unassailability of the theory that has produced your certitude, but the level of investment you already have in it.

But I'm sure I can't convince you of that. You'd have to introspect to realize it.

Here's what you do: go and get yourself a copy of Thomas Nagel's book, Mind and Cosmos. It's short, it's accessible, it's scholarly, it's by a major philosopher -- and he is, from beginning to end, a total Atheist. Then you and I can discuss intelligently whether or not evolutionism is some sort of unquestionable fact, and whether or not any intelligent person believes otherwise.

...to say evolution does not happen is demonstrably wrong.

We're talking about human evolution, in specific. True or false, the rest matters not at all to the subject in hand. So let's not argue. What cannot be demonstrated, and what lacks even sufficient indicative evidence, is the idea of human evolution.

Do you believe that God created the "original mating pair" like this?
"The Lord God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being...
So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he was asleep, he took part of the man’s side and closed up the place with flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the part he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man."

Of course. I have no idea why you even bother asking the question, since I'm a Christian.

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 4:51 pm It's not really my place to interfere, but that sort of thing doesn't usually stop me, so I will.

If Gary is suffering from mental illness, which I seem to remember his saying that he was, then should you be saying this to him? I mean, are you qualified to deal with mental illness?

I understand your reservations. But what do you suggest as the alternative? The guy's hurting. He's sending messages out there into the universe, saying, "Does anybody hear me?" And we do. But are we going to sit on our hands and say nothing?

If Gary's as unhappy as he says, and if his situation is as critical as he seems to be implying, then he needs, at least, to be heard. If it's really critical, then he needs to be heard and validated right now. Ideally, he needs some friendly voice to encourage him, and if there is a way to the better, to point it out, if possible.

So let's do whatever we can to say, "Gary, we hear you; and maybe we can talk about how you might be able to help yourself." That seems at least the minimum we could do for him, does it not?

If you feel it's a better idea than just talking to him, why not point him to some professional, program, philosophy or strategy that might offer him hope? I'm sure he'd appreciate the help. It's a lot better than being ignored, I'm sure.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:24 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:11 pm If there's not a God or if God is not a good God, then that would tend to explain the presence of evil better than the notion of a loving God.

Unless God had some sufficient reason for allowing at least some occasions of the phenomena and actions we are speaking of as "evil." And if that were the case, we'd have to think a lot more carefully than if we just take our anger out on Him by deciding to act as if He doesn't exist...as if trying to punish God by refusing to believe in Him...which would mean we actually would believe in Him, but hate Him.

This is so completely fucking insane.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:30 pm I understand your reservations. But what do you suggest as the alternative?

I daren't suggest anything, for fear of doing more harm than good.

The guy's hurting. He's sending messages out there into the universe, saying, "Does anybody hear me?" And we do. But are we going to sit on our hands and say nothing?

I'm sure everyone on the forum has great sympathy, and would help if they could.

If you feel it's a better idea than just talking to him, why not point him to some professional, program, philosophy or strategy that might offer him hope? I'm sure he'd appreciate the help. It's a lot better than being ignored, I'm sure.

I don't know about any professional programmes in my own country, let alone in another. Besides, I imagine he's aware of what is available, and may well have had dealings with them.

There's nothing wrong with talking, but I just think we should be careful about giving advice. That's all I'm going to say; I don't really feel comfortable discussing him without his participation, and I'm not sure I should have stuck my nose in at all, actually.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:10 pm
(I ask, because many, many people also want change, but don't want to have to change themselves to get it. They're determined that if relief is to come to them, it's only to come on the terms they want to set...and it's not to cost them any change in themselves. They're ready to see their circumstances change, but they're not at all ready to become part of their own solution.)

In other words, just how serious is this, to you? And what are you ready to do to see it change?

What about your mental illness IC? The one you appear to have that makes you insist an invisible father figure called God who has no physical form actually exists. A figure that did not exist for you when you were born, not until someone else told you about it, which you then believed was real. Something that would never have crossed your mind until you heard about it from someone else. Someone else told you God existed and you just blindly believed that person was telling the truth.

What about the belief you hold that people should worship and idolise this invisible formless father figure that someone else has made-up out of the flesh and bone of their physical brain, which you believed to be true when they told you about it.. What about the belief you have that unless people believe what you believe to be true, they will burn in hell forever.

Now I'm not saying you are not allowed to believe in invisible formless father figures, you are, and that's your mental problem only you have to deal with, but to then insist and impose your rather weird mental state on others is not helping your own mental condition is it, rather, I would imagine it would only be making it worse.

Just how serious is your mental illness, to you IC? And what are you ready to do to see it change?
Why don't you try sitting yourself down in a quiet corner one day and seriously think about your own mental state, ask yourself repeatedly, can I change my strange mental state and relieve not only myself from this self-inflicted unusual condition, but can I stop imposing it on everyone else who is participating in this Christianity thread?

Instead of preaching to others about how they can change their own ill informed mental condition,how about you being the perfect role model for them by changing yours first, and then showing them that change is possible. Ask yourself, are you ready to see your own circumstances change, are you ready to become part of your own solution? and be the greatest shining beacon of light for others.

Immanuel Can to Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:30 pm In regard to...

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:49 pm...

But are we going to sit on our hands and say nothing?

This is one of the reasons why people appear to engage with you, I.C.: they're trying to shake you awake from the nonsensical babblings you seem intent to believe. Such kindness from strangers!

Another reason they engage with you is to challenge a poison that you promote, while trying to discern whether you realize it or not.

I think it's clear that Gary has more self-awareness than you do. He also has the courage to ask the questions that you won't and to see/explore beyond God-answers which don't make sense.

So, who is actually demonstrating mental illness?

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:04 pm There's nothing wrong with talking, but I just think we should be careful about giving advice.

Thank you for your advice.