Philosophy Now Forum

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:26 pm

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:48 pm OK, I'll have to look into it more deeply but find it difficult to believe the United States is not leaning on other countries to fall in line with its unjust embargo. Actually, both Kenndy and Obama wanted to end the embargo, just one of the reasons Kenndy's countrymen exterminated him. I suspect we both have it somewhat wrong; your slant does not sound like a reasonable conclusion.

That would certainly be the case except there are limits. Canada -- and numerous other countries -- do hospitality business in Cuba.

Using the term *unjust* gives away your orientation and position. If you were to be really interested in *justice* you'd have also to make statements about the dictatorship managed by the Castro regime. You'd have to know and have some knowledge of the social harm done to millions of people over the course of so many years.

You are also speculating -- wildly -- about the Kennedy assassination.

What is it that we have wrong? I view power and the use of power I think very differently from you. First, I accept it as a reality. You do not seem to. Many of your opinions and declarations seem 'knee jerk'.

What seems to you to be a more 'reasonable' conclusion to have come to?

EXCELLENT! but I also know what Cuba was like when dominated by America and the American Mafia, as America's whore house.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:07 pmEXCELLENT! but I also know what Cuba was like when dominated by America and the American Mafia, as America's whore house.

Any major regional power, in any point of history, always controls, influences and dominates smaller, local powers.

I certainly would not say that America’s domination was entirely positive. But there were all sorts of advantages too. When the revolution occurred Castro pushed out a large, educated, productive class and created the circumstances from which Cuba will not rise — until the regime is overturned.

There are criminals and criminals gangs all over the world.

And note that Castro has tolerated prostitution in Cuba. Indeed the money earned is a significant portion of income even now in Cuba.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:19 pm

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:07 pmEXCELLENT! but I also know what Cuba was like when dominated by America and the American Mafia, as America's whore house.

Any major regional power, in any point of history, always controls, influences and dominates smaller, local powers.

I certainly would not say that America’s domination was entirely positive. But there were all sorts of advantages too. When the revolution occurred Castro pushed out a large, educated, productive class and created the circumstances from which Cuba will not rise — until the regime is overturned.

There are criminals and criminal gangs all over the world.

And note that Castro has tolerated prostitution in Cuba. Indeed, the money earned is a significant portion of income even now in Cuba.

Despite the embargo, people don't go hungry, homelessness is zero, education is free and they have a wonderful health care system, and for America, that's the rub, all that with an American boot upon their necks.

Did anybody happen to notice that Putin just announced that Russia is "temporarily opting out" of the major arms-limitation treaty to which they are co-signatories? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 86469.html

Any guesses as to why?

We know one of two things that are critical to the issue.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:56 am Despite the embargo, people don't go hungry, homelessness is zero, education is free and they have a wonderful health care system, and for America, that's the rub, all that with an American boot upon their necks.

You clearly have not been to Cuba. I have.

Everybody there lives at the second level above starvation...barely making it. Most homes, except for party official's homes, are shacks. Education is largely propaganda, though basic literacy is general. They know little of the outside world. They lack gasoline, electricity, building restoration, basic sewage, protein and other basic foodstuffs, a working economy, basic medicines, and machines, and any sort of social bond of trust. It's a scrounge-to-survive society, where basic consumer goods are gold and the national money is near worthless.

Cuba's only 90 miles off the American coast. And there's an old saying: "All the boats go one way." There's a very good reason for that.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:42 am Did anybody happen to notice that Putin just announced that Russia is "temporarily opting out" of the major arms-limitation treaty to which they are co-signatories? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 86469.html

Any guesses as to why?

I assume it's because they're pissed at us. And if we wait for the Biden administration to ease up and seek a peaceful compromise to the crisis, then we'll either have a very long wait or an unnaturally, short and abrupt one. Capitalism at its finest. The whole species could go up in flames but, by golly, they'll protect their stock portfolios.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:48 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:56 am Despite the embargo, people don't go hungry, homelessness is zero, education is free and they have a wonderful health care system, and for America, that's the rub, all that with an American boot upon their necks.

You clearly have not been to Cuba. I have.

Everybody their lives at the second level above starvation...barely making it. Most homes, except for party official's homes, are shacks. Education is largely propaganda, though basic literacy is general. They know little of the outside world. They lack gasoline, electricity, building restoration, basic sewage, protein and other basic foodstuffs, a working economy, basic medicines, and machines, and any sort of social bond of trust. It's a scrounge-to-survive society, where basic consumer goods are gold and the national money is near worthless.

Cuba's only 90 miles off the American coast. And there's an old saying: "All the boats go one way." There's a very good reason for that.

I suspect you had eyes to see only what you wanted to see, true I have not been to Cuba, but my daughter has been there numerous times and I have not heard any horror stories. The world is presently reacting to America's retribution by embargoes and sanctions, for when these embargoes and sanctions kill people it is not hard to see it as an act of war. Much of the world is presently uniting as a result of America not being a kind master. Russia, China. India. Iran, South Africa, the Middle East and a host of smaller countries that identify with this movement are together more powerful than America. Does Cuba struggle, of course, even more so with an American boot on her neck. So, why are there such shortages of everything their island is a paradise, when will America cease making war on Cuba?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Cuba

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Cuba

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:20 am I suspect you had eyes to see only what you wanted to see, true I have not been to Cuba, but my daughter has been there numerous times and I have not heard any horror stories.

This is odd. IC certainly ‘sees what he wants to see’ in some categories — more in ‘categories of the mind’ — but is seeing clearly when describing Cuban socialism.

Cuba has no economy and is impoverished as a result. And poverty produces social suffering. And in such a State speech is harshly controlled. People get arrested and jailed for opposing the government.

It seems that you see what you want to see and in your case have no hands-on experience with socialist governments. My experience is with Venezuela (and I live in Colombia).

Here you can get a sense of the general impoverishment in Havana. But perhaps you’ll “see what you want to see” instead of what is visible!

The ideological mind is amazing in that way!

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:55 am
The ideological mind is amazing in that way!

- A core tenet of the Left is victimhood.
- Leftist** reasoning begins with the premise that all countries, all life, and even the weather, are victims of the USA.*
- The Left thinks that Ukraine is a victim of the USA because Russia decided to invade Ukraine and target civilians.

- Reasoning from that premise of victimhood, this interesting comparison explains how Cuba is not a victim of the USA. It explains that Cuba is a victim of socialism.

Taiwan’s Wealth Shows Cuba’s Poverty Is the Result of Socialism, Not a Blockade
https://fee.org/articles/taiwan-s-wealt ... -blockade/

“For decades the Communist Party of Cuba has blamed the United States for Cuba’s misery and poverty, alluding to the “blockade” that the U.S. maintains against Cuba. However, the alleged blockade wielded by the island is in reality a trade embargo that only makes it impossible for people and companies in certain sectors within the United States to do business with Cuba, the rest of the world can trade freely with the island.”

* So strong is the Leftist victimhood premise, they even manage to rationalize that folks are victims of God that they say doesn't exist.

** How do you spot a Leftist? If they’re in the USA look for affectations such as lingering surgical masks in public. The exception is an odor masker for those whose penance is not savouring the stench of tolerance when navigating streets where the drug-addled squat.

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:39 pm * So strong is the Leftist victimhood premise, they even manage to rationalize that folks are victims of God that they say doesn't exist.

I just want to be happy. If happiness appears impossible for me, then I just want to be able to voice my frustration and dissatisfaction. That's all. I have not said that it's in any way your fault that I have mental illness. So why does it concern you if I point the finger at the one who allegedly created this world and me in it? Leave the mentally ill alone. If you have nothing to complain about or choose not to do so, then good for you. Enjoy the chance to feel good. However, if feeling good can only be achieved by controlling the reactions of others around you, then you'll be likely to join us if you're not careful. Save yourself some frustration and just let us be.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:38 am And if we wait for the Biden administration to ease up and seek a peaceful compromise to the crisis, then we'll either have a very long wait or an unnaturally, short and abrupt one. Capitalism at its finest.

You think Biden and the Dems are "Capitalists"? Odd, since they're the party with the radical Socialist lobby.

But in a sense, you're right: they're "Capitalists," if by "Capitalist" we understand spoiled, Western elites with large stock portfolios and multiple homes, etc. The whole leadership of the Democratic party seems to be composed of Hollywood brats, and Pelosis and Saunders's and Bidens -- the Martha's Vineyard set, with multiple homes and private jets always on standby.

But as is typical with such elitist advocates of Socialism, the Socialism is for you and me, and the wealth and power are for them. That's how it always works, so nothing's new about that.

What's new is that it seems their manipulations are about to plunge us into another world war, this time with nukes.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:39 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:38 am And if we wait for the Biden administration to ease up and seek a peaceful compromise to the crisis, then we'll either have a very long wait or an unnaturally, short and abrupt one. Capitalism at its finest.

You think Biden and the Dems are "Capitalists"? Odd, since they're the party with the radical Socialist lobby.

But in a sense, you're right: they're "Capitalists," if by "Capitalist" we understand spoiled, Western elites with large stock portfolios and multiple homes, etc. The whole leadership of the Democratic party seems to be composed of Hollywood brats, and Pelosis and Saunders's and Bidens -- the Martha's Vineyard set, with multiple homes and private jets always on standby.

But as is typical with such elitist advocates of Socialism, the Socialism is for you and me, and the wealth and power are for them. That's how it always works, so nothing's new about that.

What's new is that it seems their manipulations are about to plunge us into another world war, this time with nukes.

We agree on that.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:20 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:48 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:56 am Despite the embargo, people don't go hungry, homelessness is zero, education is free and they have a wonderful health care system, and for America, that's the rub, all that with an American boot upon their necks.

You clearly have not been to Cuba. I have.

Everybody their lives at the second level above starvation...barely making it. Most homes, except for party official's homes, are shacks. Education is largely propaganda, though basic literacy is general. They know little of the outside world. They lack gasoline, electricity, building restoration, basic sewage, protein and other basic foodstuffs, a working economy, basic medicines, and machines, and any sort of social bond of trust. It's a scrounge-to-survive society, where basic consumer goods are gold and the national money is near worthless.

Cuba's only 90 miles off the American coast. And there's an old saying: "All the boats go one way." There's a very good reason for that.

I suspect you had eyes to see only what you wanted to see,

No, I'm telling you the simple truth. You'll get the same story from the many refugees fleeing the place right now, too.

So, why are there such shortages of everything their island is a paradise, when will America cease making war on Cuba?

Because they're Socialist. They've never had their own functioning economy, nor any competent governance at all.

For a long time they were entirely dependent on Russia, who bought up all of their exports, mostly sugar. But Russia can't afford them anymore. Then they depended on Venezuela. But Venezuela went Socialist and ruined its economy, despite having some of the most abundant oil reserves on the planet. So now they have no paternal state watching over them, and their own government is so venial and corrupt, and so incompetent, that they are having to let all their young people flee to the mainland, through places like Panama, and try to escape into the States or other European destinations like Spain, Greece or Russia. The whole country's turning into an old-folks home, because so many young people are fleeing.

So that's Cuba, your "island paradise." It's the place everybody's trying to escape.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:55 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:20 am I suspect you had eyes to see only what you wanted to see, true I have not been to Cuba, but my daughter has been there numerous times and I have not heard any horror stories.

This is odd. IC certainly ‘sees what he wants to see’ in some categories — more in ‘categories of the mind’ — but is seeing clearly when describing Cuban socialism.

Cuba has no economy and is impoverished as a result. And poverty produces social suffering. And in such a State speech is harshly controlled. People get arrested and jailed for opposing the government.

It seems that you see what you want to see and in your case have no hands-on experience with socialist governments. My experience is with Venezuela (and I live in Colombia).

Here you can get a sense of the general impoverishment in Havana. But perhaps you’ll “see what you want to see” instead of what is visible!

The ideological mind is amazing in that way!

People in Cuba are not allowed to oppose the state. It's obvious from historical and anthropological knowledge that states are not saints but are composed of self seeking elites unless there be regulating mechanisms of democratic elections and social mobility.

One party communism like in Cuba is not the same as socialism. A one party state may be either rightist or leftist.

When Immanuel and Alexis conflate socialism and one party communism they are not telling the truth.