Philosophy Now Forum

I'm not really interested in hearing how you justify that position, so don't bother me with it.

You needn't worry, BM: I have no interest in talkin' about my views with you. No, I'm just pointin' out your view precludes reformin' moral/ethical systems or gettin' Spittin' Guy to stop hawkin' up loogies on bus drivers becuz both require choices which meat machines are incapable of makin'.

I suggest your view is incoherent (which, of course, if you're a meat machine, just is what it is and can't be otherwise).

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:01 am "The Father" is deterministic in the sense that truth/ reality is absolute. "The son" can't experience the absolute truth/reality however "the son" may use absolute truth/reality like a needle in a compass follows magnetic north. Human wisdom can develop only in consequence of a measure of pain.

I think that is the case.

From my experience, hell is necessary.
Everything must be definitively lost.

But there is a substantial difference between hell and nihilistic emptiness.

In nihilism, absolute nothing wins.

While with hell the Good triumphs.

We can and must have it both ways

We can't, B. If we're just meat machines then we are that. All of it: every fine and nightmarish thought, every kindness and depravity, every nobility and atrocity, all of it just the unwavering result of particles colliding and heat bein' exchanged. Our certainties and doubts, our sense of self-efficacy or impotence all meaningless glitches in a electro-chemical kludge.

As meat machines we're the nihilist's wet dream: compelled to meander and do for no reason at all.

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. -That Guy

As a determinist I apply my belief

Nope. And that's the cosmic joke. You don't do squat, not as a choice, not with intent, cuz you're a meat machine and can't.

compelled to meander and do for no reason at all.

The whole point of determinism is that things are done for a specific reason. A reason which can't be bypassed.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:36 am

compelled to meander and do for no reason at all.

The whole point of determinism is that things are done for a specific reason. A reason which can't be bypassed.

Exactly. "Naught happens by chance, but all from a ground and by necessity." (Leucippus)

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:36 am

compelled to meander and do for no reason at all.

The whole point of determinism is that things are done for a specific reason. A reason which can't be bypassed.

Well, the determinist sez we are compelled to do this and we have no choice about it. The reason (explanation, actually) is the unceasing collision of particles and exchange of heat stretchin' back to the beginning. Things are as they are and can be nuthin' other than what they are.

Reason, as in reasoning (to think, to assess, to suss out, to conclude, to reassess, etc.) has no part in it and is an illusion, a fiction, a glitch in an electrically charged lump of meat.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:50 am

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:36 am

compelled to meander and do for no reason at all.

The whole point of determinism is that things are done for a specific reason. A reason which can't be bypassed.

Well, the determinist sez we are compelled to do this and we have no choice about it. The reason (explanation, actually) is the unceasing collision of particles and exchange of heat stretchin' back to the beginning. Things are as they are and can be nuthin' other than what they are.

Reason, as in reasoning (to think, to assess, to suss out, to conclude, to reassess, etc.) has no part in it and is an illusion, a fiction, a glitch in an electrically charged lump of meat.

“By convention sweet and by convention bitter, by convention hot, by convention cold, by convention color; but in reality atoms and void.” (Democritus)

Naught happens by chance, but all from a ground and by necessity.

Indeed, so stop yammerin' on about reformin' (codes of) behavior. It's necessary for Spittin' Guy to hawk up loogies (though, I guess, it's necessary for you to yammer, and for me to point out the incoherency of meat machines yammerin').

We're nuthin' but sound and fury, if we're meat machines.

Well, the determinist sez we are compelled to do this and we have no choice about it. The reason (explanation, actually) is the unceasing collision of particles and exchange of heat stretchin' back to the beginning. Things are as they are and can be nuthin' other than what they are.

A determinist says that what exists determines what happens next.

You guys keep throwing "compulsion", "no choice" and other nonsense into it.

Reason, as in reasoning (to think, to assess, to suss out, to conclude, to reassess, etc.) has no part in it and is an illusion, a fiction, a glitch in an electrically charged lump of meat.

Reasoning is what brains do. It's part of determinism.

A determinist says that what exists determines what happens next.

He sez everything that happens must happen as it does and could not have happened any other way; he sez every event includin' human events, is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs.

How then is man, the meat machine, not compelled? How is he not without choice?

You can't have it both ways.

Reasoning is what brains do.

No, reasoning is what free wills do. Meat machines just glitch, movin' from A to B to C with a fiction of self-efficacy playin' out behind the eyes.

How then is man, the meat machine, not compelled? How is he not without choice?

You're choosing something because you think it's a good choice to pick.

Nobody is forcing a choice on to you.

No, reasoning is what free wills do. Meat machines just glitch, movin' from A to B to C with a fiction of self-efficacy playin' out behind the eyes.

Your "meat machines" still have brains. What do you think brains do?

Let me offer this example :

As a kid , you were bitten by a snake.

Now as an adult, you make choices so that you avoid coming into contact with snakes.

There isn't some power in the universe that compels you to avoid snakes. Your brain thinks it's a good idea to avoid snakes.

And you may have a future experience which will change your ideas about snakes.

All of this fits in perfectly well with determinism. It is determinism.

You're choosing something because you think it's a good choice to pick.

No. If everything that happens must happen as it does and could not have happened any other way, you choose nuthin'. To choose means you, for reasons you suss out for yourself, pick between this and that. Determinism precludes choice.

Nobody is forcing a choice on to you.

Of course not, cuz you're not choosing at all.

What do you think brains do?

Aside from unconsciously overseeing bodily process, the brain of a meat machine is an illusion generator. It fabricates a sense of autonomy/identity. But that sense is fiction, a glitch, cuz no matter what a meat machine thinks, no matter what it tells itself, it is not a free will, it does not choose, it's nuthin' but one link in a morass of causal chains.

Again: you can't have it both ways.

you make choices so that you avoid coming into contact with snakes.

No. An event inexorably led to an event. A to B to C. As meat machine I don't choose caution; caution is the necessary result of my bein' bit. That is: the particular kludge that is my brain/body has no choice but to be cautious just as another particular brain/body kludge (yours, mebbe) has no choice but to not be cautious despite bein' bit.

You can't have it both ways.

If you say I'm not a free will (or, as BM prefers, I don't have free will) then you say are compelled in every way. Everything you are, everything you think and feel is as it is, necessarily, and can be no other way.

This back & forth between us is as it is and can be no other way. Your irritation(?) with me, my flabbergastedness with all of you, all of it is determined. All of it couldn't have been any other way, if we're meat machines

Why don't you explain how free-will works in the case of the snake bite.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:03 pm Why don't you explain how free-will works in the case of the snake bite.

Nope. I'm stayin' true to my word given to BM, up-thread.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:12 am

I'm not really interested in hearing how you justify that position, so don't bother me with it.

You needn't worry, BM: I have no interest in talkin' about my views with you.

So let's stick with the current topic.