A Challenge to Richard Dawkins and the Atheists

[Greta]

I notice that the Atheist set on this strand is absolutely DESPERATE to make the main question change to something personal. They don't want to discuss Atheism (or "atheism") at any cost.

Mr Can, there really isn't much to discuss about atheism. It has been pointed out to you by several atheists that all that atheism entails is a lack of belief in any god. The Atheism you describe is different, in that you define it as a positive belief that god does not exist. The atheists on this forum have agreed that any such belief should be supported by evidence, and if any Atheist can provide that evidence, then we atheists would be as eager to see it as you. We have also pointed out that atheists would just as quickly debunk such a ridiculous claim as you. In that regard, Mr Can, you and atheists agree.

Nice summary of the situation.

Freud called it projection - and in this instance Immanuel is projecting his passionate belief on to others. He clearly cannot imagine someone not passionately believing in something, so he (and many other theists) posit that atheists passionately believe in atheism or materialism. Perhaps the term "apatheism" will help clarify?

An apatheist is also someone who is not interested in accepting or denying any claims that gods exist or do not exist. In other words, an apatheist is someone who considers the question of the existence of gods as neither meaningful nor relevant to his or her life.

In short, they don't much care about the question. They care about the question of gods as much as they care about the question of leprechauns, fairies and flying spaghetti monsters ("All Praise His Noodliness"). The question simply isn't on their radar. Many of them do not lead examined lives.

In truth, both atheism and theism have numerous members who do not lead examined lives - via dogma or apathy, respectively.

IMO the important thing is to lead an examined life, to do better than following urges, to consider "how" and "why". The way one reaches that level of reflectiveness would seem less important, be it reason and science, politics, art, creeds, etc.

[thedoc]

That the Bible is the word of god and that Jesus is the Son of the OT god. So on and so forth…..

What you’re supposed to believe is a different question entirely the answer to which is not to be presumed by me. That’s what you’re own intelligence is for. Why try to bait someone else with a question that can’t be answered, since I’m not you?

You have been implying what my beliefs are, and I was just trying to find out what you thought I believed. So far you have it right, but the question is how do you interpret what is written? Which so far you have dodged that question. I'll give you a hint, I'm not a Creationist.

I don't know what you mean by "interpret what is written"! What writing are you referring to? The Bible?? I can hardly dodge a question when I'm not certain what it's asking. If the Bible is what your referring to, I would have thought that my views on that are clear. If, as it appears, it refers to what you've written then my interpretation would be though you believe implicitly in the Bible as the word God you're not ready to accept every statement in it as literal.

That's the best I can do where YOU are concerned.

My views on your views:

Whether accepted literally or selectively, the Bible remains a purely Jewish document and it's OT overlord only a "tribal god" in charge of it's "chosen people". If you believe that to be an actual god instead of a created one, so be it. No one cares. But when theists start crusading against atheists as evil without morals, judging ONLY in terms of their own theism instead of acknowledging non-theists as having a secular morality begun by Enlightenment philosophers, you'll only succeed in advancing atheism by destroying theism. Much of its art rituals and customs will survive but its center will be an empty throne.

Yes, but you are the one who referenced the Bible and the OT and "what is written" can only be in reference to the Bible, FYI, the OT is used as part of the Christian Bible, and Christian teaching, so trying to claim that it is purely a Jewish document is just wrong. But you are correct I do not believe that the OT can be accepted in a literal sense, but needs to be read as mythology, and you need to take into account who the writers were and who the intended audience was.

[Arising_uk]

... I've heard the phrase "a piece of work" used in a derogatory sense, but I wanted to be sure of how you were using it.

It's worse.

[thedoc]

Freud called it projection - and in this instance Immanuel is projecting his passionate belief on to others. He clearly cannot imagine someone not passionately believing in something, so he (and many other theists) posit that atheists passionately believe in atheism or materialism. Perhaps the term "apatheism" will help clarify?

An apatheist is also someone who is not interested in accepting or denying any claims that gods exist or do not exist. In other words, an apatheist is someone who considers the question of the existence of gods as neither meaningful nor relevant to his or her life.

In short, they don't much care about the question. They care about the question of gods as much as they care about the question of leprechauns, fairies and flying spaghetti monsters ("All Praise His Noodliness"). The question simply isn't on their radar. Many of them do not lead examined lives.

If you are really an apatheist, as you imply, then why are you here, if you don't really care?

[thedoc]

... I've heard the phrase "a piece of work" used in a derogatory sense, but I wanted to be sure of how you were using it.

It's worse.

Thankyou, a very non-committal answer.

[Arising_uk]

Thankyou, a very non-committal answer.

How is "It's worse" non-committal?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

'' An apatheist is also someone who is not interested in accepting or denying any claims that gods exist or do not exist. In other words, an apatheist is someone who considers the question of the existence of gods as neither meaningful nor relevant to his or her life.''

Wonderful. That's one 'ist' that I wouldn't mind, and that makes complete sense. The only sensible way to be. It's just a shame 'theists' can't help interfering in others' lives, so people are forced to take a stand against their crap. A couple of god-bothering morons nearly broke my gate yesterday, trying to break into my property to assault my mind and ears and ruin my day.

[thedoc]

Thankyou, a very non-committal answer.

How is "It's worse" non-committal?

The answer is a bit vague as in "It's worse" could mean several things, and the question implied a desire for a more specific answer.

If you don't want to answer, or can't, it's OK, I understand.

[thedoc]

'' An apatheist is also someone who is not interested in accepting or denying any claims that gods exist or do not exist. In other words, an apatheist is someone who considers the question of the existence of gods as neither meaningful nor relevant to his or her life.''

Wonderful. That's one 'ist' that I wouldn't mind and that makes complete sense. The only sensible way to be. It's just a shame 'theists' can help interfering in others' lives, so people are forced to take a stand against their crap. A couple of god-bothering morons nearly broke my gate yesterday, trying to break into my property to assault my mind and ruin my day.

If they didn't get in, how do you know who they were and what they wanted, or are you just projecting again?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

'' An apatheist is also someone who is not interested in accepting or denying any claims that gods exist or do not exist. In other words, an apatheist is someone who considers the question of the existence of gods as neither meaningful nor relevant to his or her life.''

Wonderful. That's one 'ist' that I wouldn't mind and that makes complete sense. The only sensible way to be. It's just a shame 'theists' can help interfering in others' lives, so people are forced to take a stand against their crap. A couple of god-bothering morons nearly broke my gate yesterday, trying to break into my property to assault my mind and ruin my day.

If they didn't get in, how do you know who they were and what they wanted, or are you just projecting again?

I watched them fighting with the gate for ages, yoo-hooing from the street (yes, they were actually 'yoo-hooing'). Then they FINALLY went away. I was gardening when they CAME BACK and started fighting with the gate AGAIN! I didn't need to ask, because god-bothering JWs are so obvious in their pairs. Mormons are distinctive too. These were JWs. I asked them what they wanted, and they said, 'hello darling. We are Jehovah's Witnesses just doing our rounds'. Is that evidence enough for you? I said 'I don't want the gate opened. That's why it's shut'. They finally fucked off. I'm sick of those inconsiderate shit-heads leaving my gate open. The other day a wandering dog nearly made a meal of my cat because of it being left open (and they ALWAYS leave it open).

[thedoc]

We are Jehovah's Witnesses just doing our rounds'.

I have a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses who stop here to talk on occasion, we have a few differences, and I have corrected them on a few points, but all in all they are very pleasant to talk to, and if I say I'm busy they will come back later.

FYI, my paternal grandmother's family was from Australia, they were kicked out of Ireland for stealing livestock and sent to Australia, then they were kicked out of Australia for stealing livestock and sent to America, the Australian criminals didn't want them.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

We are Jehovah's Witnesses just doing our rounds'.

FYI, my paternal grandmother's family was from Australia, they were kicked out of Ireland for stealing livestock and sent to Australia, then they were kicked out of Australia for stealing livestock and sent to America, the Australian criminals didn't want them.

Why are you telling me this?

[Harbal]

you had proposed marriage to Lacewing and she threatened to punch another tooth out of your avatar's mouth.

Then I'm sure you can see why I decided to exercise a little more caution with Greta.

[thedoc]

We are Jehovah's Witnesses just doing our rounds'.

FYI, my paternal grandmother's family was from Australia, they were kicked out of Ireland for stealing livestock and sent to Australia, then they were kicked out of Australia for stealing livestock and sent to America, the Australian criminals didn't want them.

Why are you telling me this?

[thedoc]

you had proposed marriage to Lacewing and she threatened to punch another tooth out of your avatar's mouth.

Then I'm sure you can see why I decided to exercise a little more caution with Greta.

Quite understandable, and I applaud you for it.