Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:51 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 7:17 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:26 pm Immanuel Can does not believe that socialism and communism are bad and destructive because it is written in the Bible.
We believe they're bad and destructive because 100% of the time, that's exactly what they are. That's pretty much the end of the debate.

But in point of fact, the ideology, suppositions, and view of human nature upon which Socialism depends are anti-Biblical, whether everybody knows that or not.

Marx knew it. That's why he classed his "critique of religion" as, to use his words, "the first critique."

People still see Russia in the times of Stalin but Stalin died in 1953 he was a monster, but he did defeat another monster in winning the second world war. Just think at the time of the Russian revolution/the people's revolution of 1917, the cry was freedom, bread, and peace. The west invaded Russia in order to put down this evil revolution and all the countries involved were colonial counties upset at Russia's anti-colonial stand at the time. Of course, this was before Stalin was in power. You may have some warm fuzzies about America the beautiful but generally people so inclined are Americans and don't even know their own history, their picture is painted for them by the television's six O'clock news, which the corporations own. At present American war fervor is peaking, but at the same time they are neglecting their own people; many parts of America today look like third world visions with the legions of the homeless. What opened my eyes about America was the Vietnam war. There she showed her true nature and from then on, I began listening to what the world community was saying about the land of the free and the home of the brave; and it wasn't pleasant. From Regan's death squads in South America to its overt and covert regime changes of democratic countries that were not serving the corporate interests of the United States to an adequate degree. Presently they put the entire world at peril in their quest for even more power.

Posted: **Sun Feb 12, 2023 11:34 pm**

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:30 am
Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:41 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:08 amAmerica is morally bankrupt; this is probably why it is in decline.
Look at Russia now and all its inner frictions and then insist that isn't the case with them as well, independent of how morally bankrupt you suppose America to be.
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:08 amThe Russian people are not unlike our own people, they are a proud and noble people with a right to secure their borders just as any other country has a right to secure its borders.
Oh, were they ever in danger of being invaded by the Ukrainians? What country, including the U.S., or conglomerate like NATO would be insane enough to risk invading Russia? What makes Russia - especially Putin as former KGB - so nasty now is a decades-long inferiority complex which hasn't improved based on recent events and the reason they keep threatening, in their paranoid desperation, nuclear retaliation against the West if the war in Ukraine goes against them as if they were the ones attacked! Thus far the Russians have made themselves equally dangerous and pathetic at the same time which doesn't bode well for global peace...not to mention the possibility of a future without a future!
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:08 amYou need to rethink who the bad guys are here.
So how many cities in Russia has Ukraine, NATO or the U.S. destroyed or committed war crimes against compared to Russia's invasion of Ukraine on the pretext they had to denazify them? The Russian army now is just like it was in 1945, a drunken rape gang of torturous. Ever read "Savage Continent" by Keith Lowe, or suchlike? It seems the Russian beast's behavior in war hasn't improved any since that last episode. The best way to describe it is to call it gruesomely enlightening!
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:08 amYou are naive if you think the American war machine is interested in anything other than its own survival and expansion, the industrial military complex is without a soul;
...and how does that render it different from any other military superpower like Russia and China, especially the latter who are doing everything they can to neutralize the U.S. to do what they want to do...not unlike what America itself has already done.
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:08 am...and responsible of murderous acts across the global in overt and covert acts of violence to subdue and colonize physically and/or economically. America has not been a kind master and much of the world is painfully aware of this.
...the one thing you said which rings true! America has NEVER been the beneficent benefactor it always claims to be. The world knows it as do many Americans.
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:08 am You need to rethink who the bad guys are here.
They're ALL bad and a danger to the future of the human race, but to claim that America is the one evil power on the planet is bullshit. The solution would be much easier to obtain if only it were so simple as pointing one's finger at only one culprit culpable for most of the ills in the world.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=dr ... &FORM=VIRE

Ukraine is an American puppet, but American aggression is going to be relatively short-lived, one way or another; watched the video.

Wolff was talking about the BRICS which has little to no relation to what was discussed. What's your point here?

But since it was mentioned, it may be a very long time or never before they take charge in a new world order or one equal in power to the current status quo. The members of it are not super friendly and even suspicious toward each other. It too, is certain to have its overlord, meaning mostly China, that's going to throw its weight around as they are already doing and increasing. That the BRIC is a virtual-done deal has absolutely no merit at this time, or perhaps any time. It depends as much on the administration and policies of the main Western nations whether the BRICS can subsume any of the former's power. Is anyone naive enough to think that a BRIC conglomeration is going to be any less corrupt, especially with Russia and China at the helm, than what already exists?

Also, to call Ukraine a puppet of the U.S. is beyond stupid, disgusting and repugnant! They're fighting for their existence and national identity, dependent upon the U.S. and Europe for the hardware enabling them to do that. If you want to know what a puppet and a "yes-man" nation really looks like, take a look at Belarus and its consistent nodding to Putin.

Whatever the U.S. or Germany may have done in the past, Russia is now the aggressor nation with Putin insisting that Ukraine has no right to exist, whose main targets consequently are as much the civilian population and its infrastructures as the military itself. What gives him the right to determine who is allowed to exist or not? Who is closest to now living up to the Nazi paradigm...perhaps those who accuse others of being Nazis? What loathsome hypocrisy! The Russian mentality hasn't improved one iota since 1945. Who, the hell, wants to be a part of whatever they're a part of, except perhaps ex-President Trump, the Putin bootlicker!

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:49 am**

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 11:34 pm
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:30 am
Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:41 am
Look at Russia now and all its inner frictions and then insist that isn't the case with them as well, independent of how morally bankrupt you suppose America to be.

Oh, were they ever in danger of being invaded by the Ukrainians? What country, including the U.S., or conglomerate like NATO would be insane enough to risk invading Russia? What makes Russia - especially Putin as former KGB - so nasty now is a decades-long inferiority complex which hasn't improved based on recent events and the reason they keep threatening, in their paranoid desperation, nuclear retaliation against the West if the war in Ukraine goes against them as if they were the ones attacked! Thus far the Russians have made themselves equally dangerous and pathetic at the same time which doesn't bode well for global peace...not to mention the possibility of a future without a future!

So how many cities in Russia has Ukraine, NATO or the U.S. destroyed or committed war crimes against compared to Russia's invasion of Ukraine on the pretext they had to denazify them? The Russian army now is just like it was in 1945, a drunken rape gang of torturous. Ever read "Savage Continent" by Keith Lowe, or suchlike? It seems the Russian beast's behavior in war hasn't improved any since that last episode. The best way to describe it is to call it gruesomely enlightening!

...and how does that render it different from any other military superpower like Russia and China, especially the latter who are doing everything they can to neutralize the U.S. to do what they want to do...not unlike what America itself has already done.

...the one thing you said which rings true! America has NEVER been the beneficent benefactor it always claims to be. The world knows it as do many Americans.

They're ALL bad and a danger to the future of the human race, but to claim that America is the one evil power on the planet is bullshit. The solution would be much easier to obtain if only it were so simple as pointing one's finger at only one culprit culpable for most of the ills in the world.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=dr ... &FORM=VIRE

Ukraine is an American puppet, but American aggression is going to be relatively short-lived, one way or another; watched the video.
Wolff was talking about the BRICS which has little to no relation to what was discussed. What's your point here?

But since it was mentioned, it may be a very long time or never before they take charge in a new world order or one equal in power to the current status quo. The members of it are not super friendly and even suspicious toward each other. It too, is certain to have its overlord, meaning mostly China, that's going to throw its weight around as they are already doing and increasing. That the BRIC is a virtual-done deal has absolutely no merit at this time, or perhaps any time. It depends as much on the administration and policies of the main Western nations whether the BRICS can subsume any of the former's power. Is anyone naive enough to think that a BRIC conglomeration is going to be any less corrupt, especially with Russia and China at the helm, than what already exists?

Also, to call Ukraine a puppet of the U.S. is beyond stupid, disgusting and repugnant! They're fighting for their existence and national identity, dependent upon the U.S. and Europe for the hardware enabling them to do that. If you want to know what a puppet and a "yes-man" nation really looks like, take a look at Belarus and its consistent nodding to Putin.

Whatever the U.S. or Germany may have done in the past, Russia is now the aggressor nation with Putin insisting that Ukraine has no right to exist, whose main targets consequently are as much the civilian population and its infrastructures as the military itself. What gives him the right to determine who is allowed to exist or not? Who is closest to now living up to the Nazi paradigm. . perhaps those who accuse others of being Nazis? What loathsome hypocrisy! The Russian mentality hasn't improved one iota since 1945. Who, the hell, wants to be a part of whatever they're a part of, except perhaps ex-President Trump, the Putin bootlicker!

The shifting of power! As I have asked of others, would the United States tolerate a Russian military base on the Canadian America border without invading the next day? The point to is Russia is not alone. Most of the world has had quite enough of the American empire and is working to undermine that power as we speak. America has not been a kind master.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:26 am**

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:17 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 7:17 pm We believe they're bad and destructive because 100% of the time, that's exactly what they are. That's pretty much the end of the debate.
Defense of either communism or socialism is not my bag. And though I recognize that in your world debates simply end by declarative ultimatum, in my world I cannot pull that off so easily.

Well, you certainly can't defend them on their record, that's for sure.

But it is true that a strict Marxism is by definition opposed to Christian anthropological tenets. However, there certainly are Christian theologians who work within and with the Marxian design.

Bad theologians, yes. But they're not Christian. They tend to be Liberation Theology advocates from the Catholic camp, who aren't really attentive to how antithetical Marx and Christianity actually are. And they've made plenty of messes in South and Central America, as a result.

Must a Marxian frame annul religious convictions?

Marx thought it did...and as its first task.

We explored that in depth on the Christianity thread.

That's what you call "in depth"?

You didn't even have a definition for "Christian." In my world, that's shallow. But that's not a criticism you appear to have the will to receive, so there's no need for us to reiterate it.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:28 am**

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:51 pm Just think at the time of the Russian revolution/the people's revolution of 1917, the cry was freedom, bread, and peace.

And blood. You forgot blood. Lots and lots of blood.

What they got was only one of the four...guess which one.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:11 am**

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:49 am
Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 11:34 pm
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:30 am

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=dr ... &FORM=VIRE

Ukraine is an American puppet, but American aggression is going to be relatively short-lived, one way or another; watched the video.
Wolff was talking about the BRICS which has little to no relation to what was discussed. What's your point here?

But since it was mentioned, it may be a very long time or never before they take charge in a new world order or one equal in power to the current status quo. The members of it are not super friendly and even suspicious toward each other. It too, is certain to have its overlord, meaning mostly China, that's going to throw its weight around as they are already doing and increasing. That the BRIC is a virtual-done deal has absolutely no merit at this time, or perhaps any time. It depends as much on the administration and policies of the main Western nations whether the BRICS can subsume any of the former's power. Is anyone naive enough to think that a BRIC conglomeration is going to be any less corrupt, especially with Russia and China at the helm, than what already exists?

Also, to call Ukraine a puppet of the U.S. is beyond stupid, disgusting and repugnant! They're fighting for their existence and national identity, dependent upon the U.S. and Europe for the hardware enabling them to do that. If you want to know what a puppet and a "yes-man" nation really looks like, take a look at Belarus and its consistent nodding to Putin.

Whatever the U.S. or Germany may have done in the past, Russia is now the aggressor nation with Putin insisting that Ukraine has no right to exist, whose main targets consequently are as much the civilian population and its infrastructures as the military itself. What gives him the right to determine who is allowed to exist or not? Who is closest to now living up to the Nazi paradigm. . perhaps those who accuse others of being Nazis? What loathsome hypocrisy! The Russian mentality hasn't improved one iota since 1945. Who, the hell, wants to be a part of whatever they're a part of, except perhaps ex-President Trump, the Putin bootlicker!
The shifting of power! As I have asked of others, would the United States tolerate a Russian military base on the Canadian America border without invading the next day? The point to is Russia is not alone. Most of the world has had quite enough of the American empire and is working to undermine that power as we speak. America has not been a kind master.

Regardless of whatever trespasses America committed in the past, right now most of the world is much more concerned with Russia and their expressed intention of cleansing the Ukraine of all Nazis as pretext to claim it all for themselves. Seems weird that after all these years, the Russians still have a huge Nazi complex using it to justify any action against anyone in their way.

How god-awful pathetic!

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:50 am**

Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:11 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:49 am
Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 11:34 pm

Wolff was talking about the BRICS which has little to no relation to what was discussed. What's your point here?

But since it was mentioned, it may be a very long time or never before they take charge in a new world order or one equal in power to the current status quo. The members of it are not super friendly and even suspicious toward each other. It too, is certain to have its overlord, meaning mostly China, that's going to throw its weight around as they are already doing and increasing. That the BRIC is a virtual-done deal has absolutely no merit at this time, or perhaps any time. It depends as much on the administration and policies of the main Western nations whether the BRICS can subsume any of the former's power. Is anyone naive enough to think that a BRIC conglomeration is going to be any less corrupt, especially with Russia and China at the helm, than what already exists?

Also, to call Ukraine a puppet of the U.S. is beyond stupid, disgusting and repugnant! They're fighting for their existence and national identity, dependent upon the U.S. and Europe for the hardware enabling them to do that. If you want to know what a puppet and a "yes-man" nation really looks like, take a look at Belarus and its consistent nodding to Putin.

Whatever the U.S. or Germany may have done in the past, Russia is now the aggressor nation with Putin insisting that Ukraine has no right to exist, whose main targets consequently are as much the civilian population and its infrastructures as the military itself. What gives him the right to determine who is allowed to exist or not? Who is closest to now living up to the Nazi paradigm. . perhaps those who accuse others of being Nazis? What loathsome hypocrisy! The Russian mentality hasn't improved one iota since 1945. Who, the hell, wants to be a part of whatever they're a part of, except perhaps ex-President Trump, the Putin bootlicker!
The shifting of power! As I have asked of others, would the United States tolerate a Russian military base on the Canadian America border without invading the next day? The point to is Russia is not alone. Most of the world has had quite enough of the American empire and is working to undermine that power as we speak. America has not been a kind master.
Regardless of whatever trespasses America committed in the past, right now most of the world is much more concerned with Russia and their expressed intention of cleansing the Ukraine of all Nazis as pretext to claim it all for themselves. Seems weird that after all these years, the Russians still have a huge Nazi complex using it to justify any action against anyone in their way.

How god-awful pathetic!

You've been reading too much corporate literature/read propaganda. The west should remember who saved their asses in World War two, a little respect would be nice.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:36 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:26 am That's what you call "in depth"? You didn't even have a definition for "Christian." In my world, that's shallow. But that's not a criticism you appear to have the will to receive, so there's no need for us to reiterate it.

Correction: I refrained from cooperating in the game you wished to play of asserting I could not ‘define’ it and then repeatedly demanding that I do. A childish game of course. I refused to play.

Notice the different interpretations?

In addition, in your world you can say and really believe that Marxian thought is wholly wrong and has no positive features that have not influenced Christian thought in productive and positive ways. Yours is a binary world and that for obvious reasons.

In my world I can’t do that. Or put another way to do so would lead to erroneous conclusions. None of this can you ‘hear’.

This turns back on a former post: you can and you do introduce an “hallucinated” category that earth-problems — all of them! — result from The Fall. Yet you do also rationally grasp that socialism and communism (and Marxism) are rife with errors. Bravo! Well done!

But the ‘binary’ perception, borne out of religious convictions, kicks in like a mechanism outside of your control.

It seems to me it contaminates good seeing. And since that is the result, and the result is noticed by all — except yourself! — your arguments always seem to fail to influence your target audience.

Then, the thing I am actually talking about — incomprehensible to you — flies over your head for the hundredth time.

You are relevant, of course, because your mode of thinking is common. So I introduce this element of ‘certainty’ and ‘assertiveness’ mixed up with erroneous conclusions, here on a thread dealing with political and geo-political affairs.

Who sees accurately enough to offer convulsive (i.e. useful) interpretations?

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:44 pm**

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:50 am You've been reading too much corporate literature/read propaganda. The West should remember who saved their asses in World War Two, a little respect would be nice.

Hold that thought! The entire interpretation of all the events of that war that we have all received correspond to the “corporate literature/read propaganda” that you refer to.

If that is true — is it? — then we are all seeing through received history. And if that is true — is it? — we are not seeing accurately or correctly.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:27 pm**

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:36 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:26 am That's what you call "in depth"? You didn't even have a definition for "Christian." In my world, that's shallow. But that's not a criticism you appear to have the will to receive, so there's no need for us to reiterate it.
Correction: I refrained from cooperating in the game...

What you call a "game" is basic philosophy, a preliminary step called "defining your terms."

It's used to reveal whether or not a person has even thought through his claims at the most basic level, and to ensure that all speakers are understanding a given term in precisely the same way. In other words, it's fundamental to demonstrating the coherence of the argument.

And yes, you refrain from it.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 4:52 pm**

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:44 pm
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:50 am You've been reading too much corporate literature/read propaganda. The West should remember who saved their asses in World War Two, a little respect would be nice.
Hold that thought! The entire interpretation of all the events of that war that we have all received correspond to the “corporate literature/read propaganda” that you refer to.

If that is true — is it? — then we are all seeing through received history. And if that is true — is it? — we are not seeing accurately or correctly.

Propaganda isn't necessarily lies but can be just selective information like in demonizing or defining another as enemy when in fact they are no threat. The Russians winning that war is no propaganda, they paid a terrible price to do so. Twenty-seven million soldiers and civilians inflicted a morality rate on the Germans of eighty percent of their losses in that war. It is too bad but the average guy on the street can't spend enough time becoming aware of what his government is doing at home or abroad. I think to try to see through the smoke one needs to give the so-called enemy a listen and to what the global community is saying. All this UFO stuff might be just distraction, one must wonder. Let's hope sanity prevails in this Ukraine conflict so the world can breathe a little easier

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:01 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:27 pm What you call a "game" is basic philosophy, a preliminary step called "defining your terms."

First, you are no philosopher. On any level. Immanuel, we already established this!

Second, your belief (definitions) is all that counts. Your definitions, not mine. And these are knowable and (easily) known.

The basic beliefs of Evangelical Christianity have been established. They can be expressed, and are expressed, in easy to access sources and in a short pamphlet (or webpage). Were anyone to google “What is Evangelical Christianity?” (your brand) all is instantly available. Try it!

Will your game end here? If course not! So — what’s your next move cowpoke?

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:04 pm**

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:01 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:27 pm What you call a "game" is basic philosophy, a preliminary step called "defining your terms."
First, you are no philosopher.

Ad hominem. Ever were I world's worst such, it would not argue against that statement being true.

You're awfully bad at this, AJ. You don't seem to know a relevant argument from a complete irrelevancy.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:42 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:04 pm Ad hominem. Even were I [the] world's worst such, it would not argue against that statement being true.

You're awfully bad at this, AJ. You don't seem to know a relevant argument from a complete irrelevancy.

Stick to the facts Immanuel. The truth can liberate. You are not a philosopher; you do not philosophize; and this is a very important definition that must needs be established.

Once it is established that no philosopher are you, then it is possible to respond to you because then your activity is understood.

Calling a clear definition ad hominem looks awfully similar to deflection.

Will the game continue or is that it for now?

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:46 pm**

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:42 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:04 pm Ad hominem. Even were I [the] world's worst such, it would not argue against that statement being true.

You're awfully bad at this, AJ. You don't seem to know a relevant argument from a complete irrelevancy.
Stick to the facts Immanuel.

Those are the facts. They follow from logic and evidence. Your comment was ad hominem, and empirically, you resort to that tactic often. Both are verifiable.

Philosophy Now Forum

Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis