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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:49 pm
by bahman
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:56 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:30 am
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:12 am
Right, so "complexes" of substances, relations and processes have different properties than the parts that comprise the complexes.
The point is that the properties of the whole are the functions of the properties of parts. In fact, in both above-mentioned cases, you could obtain the probability distribution theoretically which matches with what you observe.
"Functions of the properties of parts" is fine, as long as we remember that relations and processes are parts.
No, the relation and process are not parts. You have parts/fileds, the properties, and motion/process.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:56 pm
It's just that the properties of the whole aren't the same as properties of parts in isolation, or in different contexts. Hence why large sections of brains are the wholes necessary for consciousness, but those mental properties are not found in isolation, or in different contexts, when we're talking about the materials, relations and processes that comprise brains. As far as we know, it has to be
those particular materials, in
those particular relations, undergoing
those particular processes. There's no good reason yet to believe that the mental properties in question occur in any other materials/relations/processes.
You are skiping the hard problem of consciouss. You cannot have consciousness from a process. There are people who believe that the internet is conscious.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:22 pm
by Terrapin Station
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:49 pm
No, the relation and process are not parts. You have parts/fileds, the properties, and motion/process.
If you don't want to count relations and processes as parts, then you need to say that wholes, that properties of wholes, are "more than the sum of their parts," because wholes/properties of wholes hinge on relations and processes just as much as they hinge on the substances that are related and undergoing processes.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:56 pm
You are skiping the hard problem of consciouss. You cannot have consciousness from a process.
Right. As I just wrote, there's currently no reason to believe that it doesn't require specific materials, in specific relations, in specific processes. Namely, the materials, relations and processes of brains.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:36 pm
by bahman
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:22 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:49 pm
No, the relation and process are not parts. You have parts/fileds, the properties, and motion/process.
If you don't want to count relations and processes as parts, then you need to say that wholes, that properties of wholes, are "more than the sum of their parts," because wholes/properties of wholes hinge on relations and processes just as much as they hinge on the substances that are related and undergoing processes.
The point is that the properties of the whole are functions of the properties of parts. The whole cannot have any property that parts don't.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:56 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:49 pm
You are skiping the hard problem of consciouss. You cannot have consciousness from a process.
Right. As I just wrote, there's currently no reason to believe that it doesn't require specific materials, in specific relations, in specific processes. Namely, the materials, relations and processes of brains.
Of course, there are processes in the brain. The question is whether consciousness is the result of a process.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:44 pm
by Terrapin Station
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:36 pm
The point is that the properties of the whole are functions of the properties of parts. The whole cannot have any property that parts don't.
Holy crap it's like you have no short term memory.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:47 pm
by bahman
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:44 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:36 pm
The point is that the properties of the whole are functions of the properties of parts. The whole cannot have any property that parts don't.
Holy crap it's like you have no short term memory.
Why?
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:51 pm
by Terrapin Station
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:47 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:44 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:36 pm
The point is that the properties of the whole are functions of the properties of parts. The whole cannot have any property that parts don't.
Holy crap it's like you have no short term memory.
Why?
Because I explained your error here already and you
already agreed with it.
A hydrogen atom has a neutral charge.
That's not a property that either of the parts has.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:56 pm
by bahman
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:51 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:47 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:44 pm
Holy crap it's like you have no short term memory.
Why?
Because I explained your error here already and you
already agreed with it.
A hydrogen atom has a neutral charge.
That's not a property that either of the parts has.
It isn't neutral at all because the electron has a charge distribution that becomes small but never zero even at a large distance. So what you are saying is just an approximation of reality that is not real.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:57 pm
by Terrapin Station
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:56 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:51 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:47 pm
Why?
Because I explained your error here already and you
already agreed with it.
A hydrogen atom has a neutral charge.
That's not a property that either of the parts has.
It isn't neutral at all because the electron has a charge distribution that becomes small but never zero even at a large distance. So what you are saying is just an approximation of reality that is not real.
Source?
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:06 pm
by bahman
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:57 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:56 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:51 pm
Because I explained your error here already and you
already agreed with it.
A hydrogen atom has a neutral charge.
That's not a property that either of the parts has.
It isn't neutral at all because the electron has a charge distribution that becomes small but never zero even at a large distance. So what you are saying is just an approximation of reality that is not real.
Source?
https://www.reed.edu/physics/courses/Ph ... ure.22.pdf
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:10 pm
by Terrapin Station
First off, why isn't there even any author listed there?
At any rate, just where are you hallucinating a claim that a hydrogen atom has a charge in that?
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:16 pm
by bahman
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:10 pm
First off, why isn't there even any author listed there?
At any rate, just where are you hallucinating a claim that a hydrogen atom has a charge in that?
Hallucinating? I am a physicist and I know what I am talking about.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:16 pm
by Terrapin Station
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:16 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:10 pm
First off, why isn't there even any author listed there?
At any rate, just where are you hallucinating a claim that a hydrogen atom has a charge in that?
Hallucinating? I am a physicist and I know what I am talking about.
That's some specific reference.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:41 pm
by Atla
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:16 pm
Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:47 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:32 pm
So you are talking about block universe. Is everything in this universe is decided or it is open? What is the use of consciousness in the decided block universe?
What makes you think that consciousness should have such a use?
You cannot deny consciousness. It affects what we experience too. Our experiences change since there is causation after the experience. You can even experience a decision in such a reality. The point is there is a fantastic correlation between what you experience, the decision you make, and then causation. There is a mind that experiences and causes. What is "you" in your opinion?
Human consciousness, human decisions are part of all existence. But what makes you think that they have this special status, where it's them bringing about change? Why wouldn't there be change without human consciousness too?
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:51 pm
by bahman
Atla wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:41 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:16 pm
Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:47 pm
What makes you think that consciousness should have such a use?
You cannot deny consciousness. It affects what we experience too. Our experiences change since there is causation after the experience. You can even experience a decision in such a reality. The point is there is a fantastic correlation between what you experience, the decision you make, and then causation. There is a mind that experiences and causes. What is "you" in your opinion?
Human consciousness, human decisions are part of all existence. But what makes you think that they have this special status, where it's them bringing about change? Why wouldn't there be change without human consciousness too?
A conscious mind is needed for any change. I am not saying that human consciousness is the only one.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:53 pm
by Atla
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:51 pm
Atla wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:41 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:16 pm
You cannot deny consciousness. It affects what we experience too. Our experiences change since there is causation after the experience. You can even experience a decision in such a reality. The point is there is a fantastic correlation between what you experience, the decision you make, and then causation. There is a mind that experiences and causes. What is "you" in your opinion?
Human consciousness, human decisions are part of all existence. But what makes you think that they have this special status, where it's them bringing about change? Why wouldn't there be change without human consciousness too?
A conscious mind is needed for any change. I am not saying that human consciousness is the only one.
So you just want it to be true, but have no argument.