Philosophy Now Forum

owl of Minerva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:55 pm I engage in open dialogue, I do not engage with beliefs, although I could, I choose not to.

...consciousness remains the great unknown for all the disciplines.

Until there is light shed on it from whatever source, I would expect it will be physics,

...it is useless to engage in discussions about it,

So continue with your belief, I will not engage with it.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:59 am I am familiar with John 3:16 and understand it differently than you do. Suffice it to say that it has to do with consciousness

I'm sorry, I know I'm just an ig'nant deist, but, it seems to me, this...

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

...ain't got diddly to do with consciousness.

How you arrived at such a conclusion, well, I'd really like to hear how you got there.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:23 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:07 pm If God can change despairing men to hopeful men, and can change bad men to good men, why does He not always do so?

Because many men will not permit it.

Not everybody wants to change. Change starts with admitting you're no what you ought to be. That's painful and humiliating. Then it means accepting one's helplessness to change oneself. That's also hard to take. Then it means asking God to do what you cannot do. That's trusting, and trust is frightening. And finally, it means life will never be the same again. That's also disconcerting.

So lots of people simply would rather be what they are. From God's side, their freedom to choose is inviolable; because without freedom, no relationship is even possible.

So they get what they have chosen, even when they choose badly.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:23 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:07 pm If God can change despairing men to hopeful men, and can change bad men to good men, why does He not always do so?

Because many men will not permit it.

Not everybody wants to change. Change starts with admitting you're no what you ought to be. That's painful and humiliating. Then it means accepting one's helplessness to change oneself. That's also hard to take. Then it means asking God to do what you cannot do. That's trusting, and trust is frightening. And finally, it means life will never be the same again. That's also disconcerting.

So lots of people simply would rather be what they are. From God's side, their freedom to choose is inviolable; because without freedom, no relationship is even possible.

So they get what they have chosen, even when they choose badly.

I like your reply and wish it were so. There remains the problem that if God is all powerful than He could make men want to change. *I doubt if you can answer this as nobody else has ever been able to do so.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:11 am As for God loving the world so much that he was willing to die for it.

That's what you get for loving to dip your nib in the ink well.

You get some rather not what you quite expected surprises ...in other words, the birth of the brat...aka mind.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:40 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:23 pm
Because many men will not permit it.

Not everybody wants to change. Change starts with admitting you're no what you ought to be. That's painful and humiliating. Then it means accepting one's helplessness to change oneself. That's also hard to take. Then it means asking God to do what you cannot do. That's trusting, and trust is frightening. And finally, it means life will never be the same again. That's also disconcerting.

So lots of people simply would rather be what they are. From God's side, their freedom to choose is inviolable; because without freedom, no relationship is even possible.

So they get what they have chosen, even when they choose badly.

I like your reply and wish it were so. There remains the problem that if God is all powerful than He could make men want to change. *I doubt if you can answer this as nobody else has ever been able to do so.

*God wanted, wants, free wills, not robots or pets.

Answered, easily.

for me.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:54 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:59 am I am familiar with John 3:16 and understand it differently than you do. Suffice it to say that it has to do with consciousness

I'm sorry, I know I'm just an ig'nant deist, but, it seems to me, this...

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

...ain't got diddly to do with consciousness.

How you arrived at such a conclusion, well, I'd really like to hear how you got there.

It has every thing to do with consciousness.

But obviously you can make up your own interpretation of what the message is saying. And since it is a conscious mind that is perceiveing language and written words, making interpretations and meanings through associations, then why not use the word consciousness.

Consciousness is fundamentally behind every perceived perception that can be perceived, spoken or written.

It's no good just saying someones interpretation of a bible verse has nothing to do with the verse, that's just dumb.
I mean surely only the original author of the verse will know what the message is saying, as for everyone else, they can only make up their own interpretation as they percieve it to be.
________
John 3:16 in my opinion...means the following ....

God giving his only son, means God aka ( the imageless) gave his only son aka ( himself, as a bastard child, for there is no other self) to the world of material flesh in the form of( image ) aka a seen image of his unseen self.
How easy was that? furthermore...who sees the image, but consciousness itself, who knows the image by name, but the mental construction through word.

Or... in other words....
When pure latent awarenesss (father) knows sensation, kinetic consciousness (mother) son is born (mind)
These 3 things, awareness, consciousness, and mind, are all apects of the same ONE reality, interconnecting with itself.

Nothing wrong with the word consciousness. Awareness, consciousness, and mind, all mean the exact same thing, namely SELF OR BEING

But then humans will always distort the ''absolute truth'' to serve their own agenda's. In a sense that if you do not Agree with my version of the truth, then fuck off, kind of way...


Point is, we all know truth, every single one of us knows the absolute truth because our CONSCIOUSNESS is more sophisticated in the sense it is capable of being aware it is aware.....some other animals can be like that, but not as keen as what the human consciousness is capable of....so we all know the truth, because as a human consciousness, we can know truth...so it matters not how one chooses to word truth...your own truth of being and self needs no proof or approval from anyone outside of your own knowing.

And that's what IC does not fully grasp yet.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:55 pm Do we have to believe in supernatural stories to follow the ethics of Jesus?

To be Christian: you gotta believe, yeah.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:07 pm Is it proper for a free man to believe an institutional doctrine?

Since when is the Bible institutional?


But do you also have to buy all the supernatural stories?

As I understand Christianity: yep.