Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:01 pm**

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In 2020, a song by Cardi B called "WAP" debuted at No 1 on Billboard's hot 100.

As it relates to my heated conversation with FlashDangerpants regarding the gradual devolution of our general morality, I remember growing up watching American Bandstand back in the 50s and 60s.

I pictured what would have happened back then if "WAP" had been listed as number 1 on good ol' Dick Clark's top 10 national hits of the day...

...and was then played on national television while the kids danced to it...

Click on the following YouTube link and have a listen to its beautiful words and touching message, and then tell me if you think this represents a good (healthy) trajectory for a society?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10cRNiXlWRQ

After that, we can discuss the morality of Lady Gaga wearing a meat dress...

...in a world where this exists...

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Posted: **Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:33 pm**

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:01 pmIn 2020, a song by Cardi B called "WAP" debuted at No 1 on Billboard's hot 100.

As it relates to my heated conversation with FlashDangerpants regarding the gradual devolution of our general morality, I remember growing up watching American Bandstand back in the 50s and 60s.

seeds me old china, if you wanted to illustrate the moral decline you perceive, yer might have picked a billboard that wasn't topped by a song about a teenaged groupie, by an artist accused of abuse on several occasions. Breaks my heart because I love Chuck Berry's music, but he was not a nice person. Priscilla was fourteen when she met Elvis Presley. Jerry Lee Lewis married his underage cousin. Then there's the Beatles, 'Well she was just seventeen, you know what I mean'. The Yardbirds 'Good morning little schoolgirl'. They may have sworn less, but you are on very thin ice to claim that they were morally superior.

Posted: **Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:59 pm**

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:01 pm _______

In 2020, a song by Cardi B called "WAP" debuted at No 1 on Billboard's hot 100.

As it relates to my heated conversation with FlashDangerpants regarding the gradual devolution of our general morality, I remember growing up watching American Bandstand back in the 50s and 60s.

I pictured what would have happened back then if "WAP" had been listed as number 1 on good ol' Dick Clark's top 10 national hits of the day...

...and was then played on national television while the kids danced to it...

Click on the following YouTube link and have a listen to its beautiful words and touching message, and then tell me if you think this represents a good (healthy) trajectory for a society?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10cRNiXlWRQ

After that, we can discuss the morality of Lady Gaga wearing a meat dress...

...in a world where this exists...

_______

Posted: **Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:55 pm**

uwot wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:33 pm
seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:01 pmIn 2020, a song by Cardi B called "WAP" debuted at No 1 on Billboard's hot 100.

As it relates to my heated conversation with FlashDangerpants regarding the gradual devolution of our general morality, I remember growing up watching American Bandstand back in the 50s and 60s.
seeds me old china, if you wanted to illustrate the moral decline you perceive, yer might have picked a billboard that wasn't topped by a song about a teenaged groupie, by an artist accused of abuse on several occasions. Breaks my heart because I love Chuck Berry's music, but he was not a nice person. Priscilla was fourteen when she met Elvis Presley. Jerry Lee Lewis married his underage cousin. Then there's the Beatles, 'Well she was just seventeen, you know what I mean'. The Yardbirds 'Good morning little schoolgirl'. They may have sworn less, but you are on very thin ice to claim that they were morally superior.

Look, I get it that things weren't perfect in the past, and that there was a great deal of subtle (and not so subtle) unsavory inuendo in the songs you mentioned.

However, that's not the point!

The point is that the "trajectory" we are on where what was once subtle (covert/beneath the surface) inuendo, is now giving way to open tolerance and acceptance of the most vile and lascivious modes of speech and entertainment.

And the question is, if that continues on unabated by voluntary self-restraint, where does it end?

I'm the first to rail against some of the mythological nonsense in the Bible, but if nothing else, the fable of Sodom and Gomorrah is a cautionary tale (a cautionary warning) that seems to be fitting in this situation.

Not because God is going to strike us down because we've become sinful beyond his tolerance, but because it suggests that when a society's general morality completely gives way to hedonism (along with wanton imperialism),...

(like what allegedly happened with the fall of the Roman Empire)

...it's an indication that the society's end is nigh.

Not meaning to be a drama queen here,...

...but if that is indeed at least a possibility, then don't you think that for the sake of our children, we need to figure out a logical way to put the "governor" back on the engine of our civilization before it revs out of control and explodes?
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Posted: **Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:34 pm**

Lovely old song from around the 1830s for you to enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLotX3HE-4c

You should compare it lyrically against WAP and see if there's anything new under the sun.

Posted: **Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:34 pm**

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:55 pmThe point is that the "trajectory" we are on where what was once subtle (covert/beneath the surface) inuendo, is now giving way to open tolerance and acceptance of the most vile and lascivious modes of speech and entertainment.

Here's the thing seeds: you are talking about modes of speech and entertainment; I'm talking about behaviour. Much as I love ya, I think you have got this completely arse about tit. Have a look at the following sentence and think carefully about what offends you: 'A man fucks a child.' If it is the word 'fucks' I think you need to re-evaluate your priorities.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:55 pmAnd the question is, if that continues on unabated by voluntary self-restraint, where does it end?

With people having to be more creative with language to upset others. More art, more beauty. It's in the eye of the beholder, dontcha know?

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:55 pmI'm the first to rail against some of the mythological nonsense in the Bible...

seeds, I can think of a few people who are in front of you in the queue.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:55 pm...but if nothing else, the fable of Sodom and Gomorrah is a cautionary tale (a cautionary warning) that seems to be fitting in this situation.

What did the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah do that justified the entire population been wiped out? What can every member of a state be guilty of that justifies the killing of infants and babies? Dunno? Well it's that awful Judeo-Christian thing that just being born makes you guilty.

Posted: **Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:51 pm**

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:01 pm _______

In 2020, a song by Cardi B called "WAP" debuted at No 1 on Billboard's hot 100.

As it relates to my heated conversation with FlashDangerpants regarding the gradual devolution of our general morality, I remember growing up watching American Bandstand back in the 50s and 60s.

I pictured what would have happened back then if "WAP" had been listed as number 1 on good ol' Dick Clark's top 10 national hits of the day...

Are you going to pretend there weren't problematic songs in the 50's and 60's chock full of racism and misogyny and the like? Those songs would never fly today.

In WAP, a woman simply expresses her sexual prowess (which is something people have sung about since the dawn of time). I notice that men sing about their sexual prowess all the time (even in the 50's and 60's!), but the moment a woman talks about her arousal and her prowess, suddenly it's the worst thing in the world!

I'll take a woman's sexual power over misogyny and racism any day of the week. Plus, the song is a banger. Thanks for linking it as it's been a while since I listened to it, lol. Adding to my research mix since it's pretty chill.

seeds wrote:After that, we can discuss the morality of Lady Gaga wearing a meat dress...

...in a world where this exists...

_______

I don't understand the argument. You realize that music stars in the 50's and 60's wore jewelry and clothes worth bazillions of times what this meat dress cost to make, right? Now I'm not arguing the ethics of wearing a meat dress, I'm arguing that your argument that things "used to be better" misses the mark by a wiiiiide margin.

Posted: **Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:08 pm**

"I notice that men sing about their sexual prowess all the time (even in the 50's and 60's!), but the moment a woman talks about her arousal and her prowess, suddenly it's the worst thing in the world!"

here's summa my theory bruh. imagine the ultra-paternalistic and conservative nature of Islamic theology - namely how women are concealed in public and so on - was as expression of an instinct that socially evolved to require the males to protect the females under certain circumstances. in islam, we see an immature instance of this subconscious instinct to protect females institutionalized by a religion. in any case, it looks like most every successful modern culture emerged and developed from some older social organization that involved limiting the privilege of females in an effort to protect them from whatever... wild aminals, other tribes, other men, other women, etc...

so then what we observe as that transition from the ultra conservative cultures of the 50s amd 60s and how sexually explicit behavior was prohibited for females... is the last stage of the withering away of the atavism of paternalism in the modern era. So it's not like a blemish or an obstacle to social evolution... but a product of it. Outdated yes, but from modest and well intentioned origins.

remember tho the paternalistic instinct in male leadership was essentially a behavior that evolved under duress. it's a hard habit to break, so to speak. islam is a shining example of that prehistoric behavior... never taking your girl out with the fellas around or let her hang out with you guys. that's aksing for trouble cuz you know your homeboys are gonna be tryna hit it.

And you wouldn't do that. You wouldn't do that to your girl or your homeboys. It's a pretty tight system tho.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:58 pm**

uwot wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:34 pm
seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:55 pm The point is that the "trajectory" we are on where what was once subtle (covert/beneath the surface) inuendo, is now giving way to open tolerance and acceptance of the most vile and lascivious modes of speech and entertainment.
Here's the thing seeds: you are talking about modes of speech and entertainment; I'm talking about behaviour. Much as I love ya, I think you have got this completely arse about tit. Have a look at the following sentence and think carefully about what offends you: 'A man fucks a child.' If it is the word 'fucks' I think you need to re-evaluate your priorities.

I am not only offended by the behavior implicit in the statement, but I am also offended on behalf of the owners of the forum whose decorum representative (AMod) has asked us (more than once) not to use strong expletives in our posts.

Or is this a situation where you feel as if you are exempt from that request?

Philosophy Now Magazine (Rick Lewis) has provided us with this great (advertisement-free) gathering place where people from all over the world can come together to share and discuss philosophical ideas.

In which case, I don't think it's too much to ask of us (for the sake of civility) to comply to the owner's request of, again, not using strong expletives in our conversations.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:55 pm ...but if nothing else, the fable of Sodom and Gomorrah is a cautionary tale (a cautionary warning) that seems to be fitting in this situation.

uwot wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:34 pm What did the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah do that justified the entire population been wiped out? What can every member of a state be guilty of that justifies the killing of infants and babies?...

Come on now, uwot, are you actually asking me to explain the justifications for what took place in a mythological fable?

Sure, no problem.

And after that, I'll take a crack at explaining how the Dark Lord Sauron managed to create the "ONE RING" in the fires of Mount Doom.
_______

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:59 pm**

Astro Cat wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:51 pm
seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:01 pm In 2020, a song by Cardi B called "WAP" debuted at No 1 on Billboard's hot 100.

As it relates to my heated conversation with FlashDangerpants regarding the gradual devolution of our general morality, I remember growing up watching American Bandstand back in the 50s and 60s.

I pictured what would have happened back then if "WAP" had been listed as number 1 on good ol' Dick Clark's top 10 national hits of the day...
...In WAP, a woman simply expresses her sexual prowess (which is something people have sung about since the dawn of time). I notice that men sing about their sexual prowess all the time (even in the 50's and 60's!), but the moment a woman talks about her arousal and her prowess, suddenly it's the worst thing in the world!

I'll take a woman's sexual power over misogyny and racism any day of the week. Plus, the song is a banger. Thanks for linking it...

You're welcome.

And thank you, Astro Cat, for being a member of a more recent generation who is so clearly and generously demonstrating (exemplifying/proving) my point (as per the bits bolded by me).

I mean, to call those lyrics from hell

as simply being a situation where a woman is "...expressing her sexual prowess..." is quite a rosy interpretation.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:01 pm After that, we can discuss the morality of Lady Gaga wearing a meat dress...

...in a world where this exists...

Astro Cat wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:51 pm I don't understand the argument. You realize that music stars in the 50's and 60's wore jewelry and clothes worth bazillions of times what this meat dress cost to make, right? Now I'm not arguing the ethics of wearing a meat dress, I'm arguing that your argument that things "used to be better" misses the mark by a wiiiiide margin.

If I have to explain to you how juxtaposing this image...

...with this image...

...is yet another example of the devolution of our general morality, then I'm afraid the problem is worse than I thought.

First of all, it's bad enough that we torture and slaughter innocent creatures in factory farms because we like the taste of their flesh.

However, it is something else altogether to use their sacrifice in such an immoral and tawdry display, purely for the sake of entertainment.

Yet, that's exactly what the latest (first world/western) generations of humans have come to accept as being perfectly okay.

And secondly, I wonder if Lady Gaga would think it appropriate to sashay around in that meat monstrosity in front of those starving children? (Oh dear, I can already hear the jokes)

I, personally, am one who is able to project my mind into outer space and look back down on the earth from a higher perspective.

And from that elevated vantage point, there appears to be very little distance between us as we move about on this tiny ball.

In which case (to me, anyway), that is exactly what she's doing; she is sashaying around in front of starving children (metaphorically speaking, of course), while not only wasting precious food for the sake of vulgar (hedonistic) entertainment purposes,...

...but she, along with all those who accept and applaud this immoral behavior, are obviously completely devoid of any empathy or gratitude towards the innocent creatures who are forced to sacrifice their lives in order to sustain our lives.

Now, I don't expect you to accept my argument, nevertheless, does that at least help you to understand it a little better?
_______

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:49 pm**

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:36 pm**

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:49 pm

Do you really think that the person who created the post in the following link...

viewtopic.php?p=574407#p574407

...is unaware of (and longs for) the evils of the past?

The problem is, you actually think that things have gotten better, when, in fact, we (the members of certain western societies) have morphed into zombies who couldn't care less if our "smart bombs" and our Hellfire missiles blow the bodies of little children into tiny pieces.

Just as long as we keep reaping the benefits of our imperialistic endeavors, we are more than happy to "look the other way" as our leaders either directly (or indirectly) cause the deaths of millions of our fellow humans across the globe.

And one of the examples I always like to cite in support of that claim is this one...

...when asked in a television interview about the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children that resulted from U.S. sanctions placed on that country in the 90s, the soon to be Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright said:
“...we think the price is worth it...”
https://youtu.be/FbIX1CP9qr4

Oh yeah, everything is so much more "politer" now.

The point is that whatever evil was present in those images you uploaded, it is still going strong today. It's just that nowadays, it's a little more insidious, for it causes intelligent and well-minded humans to be blinded to its presence.
_______

Posted: **Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:46 am**

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:59 pm You're welcome.

And thank you, Astro Cat, for being a member of a more recent generation who is so clearly and generously demonstrating (exemplifying/proving) my point (as per the bits bolded by me).

I mean, to be fair, I'm an adult (insert quiet sobbing). I can listen to explicit music for funsies and that's not a problem. I understand your point about young children, but that seems to me like it's parents' responsibility. My parents wouldn't let me listen to Rage Against the Machine when I was young because they read the lyrics and (probably rightfully) decided I was too young to understand the concepts and the violent references.

seed wrote:I mean, to call those lyrics from hell as simply being a situation where a woman is "...expressing her sexual prowess..." is quite a rosy interpretation.

I mean, yeah. That's exactly what the lyrics are. She sings about her sexual prowess, just like the bazillions of songs where men do the same. I wonder, can you tell me: while I understand you might also frown at the songs where men do this, why is it that when a woman does it, suddenly the entire world explodes over it?

It's that age old double standard where a man that's openly sexual is a stud, while a woman that's openly sexual is a harlot. I say more power to her. Certified freak, 7 days a week indeed. Go girl.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:01 pm
Astro Cat wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:51 pm I don't understand the argument. You realize that music stars in the 50's and 60's wore jewelry and clothes worth bazillions of times what this meat dress cost to make, right? Now I'm not arguing the ethics of wearing a meat dress, I'm arguing that your argument that things "used to be better" misses the mark by a wiiiiide margin.
If I have to explain to you how juxtaposing this image...

**Editing picture out for smaller post: (Gaga in meat dress)

...with this image...

**Editing picture out for smaller post: (Starving children)

...is yet another example of the devolution of our general morality, then I'm afraid the problem is worse than I thought.

First of all, it's bad enough that we torture and slaughter innocent creatures in factory farms because we like the taste of their flesh.

However, it is something else altogether to use their sacrifice in such an immoral and tawdry display, purely for the sake of entertainment.

I never disagreed with you that the dress was repugnant. What I disagreed with you about is whether things are getting "worse" than they used to be, as if there were some time in the past where horrible things weren't also happening.

You say morals devolved, and maybe they have in some instances for those that value certain things. But there is no era in the past you could point to that was "better" because something awful was going on then, too.

As for the Cardi B thing, I think womens' sexual liberation is a good thing. Women like sex too. People need to deal with that. If men can sing about how good their game is, so can women. Singling women out for doing it is a double standard. I'd understand more if you just denounced all songs about sexual prowess and sex, but then we would just have a subjective disagreement because I think adults can listen to and enjoy songs about sex without doing anything immoral.

seeds wrote: Now, I don't expect you to accept my argument, nevertheless, does that at least help you to understand it a little better?
_______

I do accept your argument (at least about Gaga's dress being repulsive, wasteful, and thoughtless). What I don't accept is that things are worse now than they were before. Some things are worse, some things are better, and that seems to be how the world has worked since the dawn of civilization.

Posted: **Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:39 am**

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:58 pmI am not only offended by the behavior implicit in the statement, but I am also offended on behalf of the owners of the forum whose decorum representative (AMod) has asked us (more than once) not to use strong expletives in our posts.

We could end up going round in circles. I said at the outset that certain words cause offence for no other reason than that people are offended by them. I don't remember having directed any words at you with the intention of causing offence, so I put it to you; why does anything I say offend you?

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:55 pmCome on now, uwot, are you actually asking me to explain the justifications for what took place in a mythological fable?

Well, as a "cautionary tale", it seems appropriate to ask what you think we are being cautioned against.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:55 pmSure, no problem.

And after that, I'll take a crack at explaining how the Dark Lord Sauron managed to create the "ONE RING" in the fires of Mount Doom.

Do you think ridicule is less offensive than expletives?

Posted: **Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:23 am**

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:36 pm Do you really think that the person who created the post in the following link...

viewtopic.php?p=574407#p574407

...is unaware of (and longs for) the evils of the past?

You are quite obviously biased in favour of those times and are applying a rose-tinted discount of enormous proportions.

The reason you are doing that for the period in time when you felt young, vigorous and carefree is something I of course couldn't begin to speculate about. I merely draw notice to the fact that when you were a youth the media that was directed towards you was rock n roll songs about having fun and driving - but now you are an old man you sound a lot like you have been hate-bingeing Fox news.

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:36 pm The problem is, you actually think that things have gotten better, when, in fact, we (the members of certain western societies) have morphed into zombies who couldn't care less if our "smart bombs" and our Hellfire missiles blow the bodies of little children into tiny pieces.

Just as long as we keep reaping the benefits of our imperialistic endeavors, we are more than happy to "look the other way" as our leaders either directly (or indirectly) cause the deaths of millions of our fellow humans across the globe.

Are you attempting to construct an argument? I will be interested to see what it actually is one day.

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:36 pm And one of the examples I always like to cite in support of that claim is this one...

...when asked in a television interview about the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children that resulted from U.S. sanctions placed on that country in the 90s, the soon to be Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright said:
“...we think the price is worth it...”
https://youtu.be/FbIX1CP9qr4
Oh yeah, everything is so much more "politer" now.

And? Do you think I can't get you horrible quotes from any period in history?
Again, are you making an argument and is so what is it?

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:36 pm The point is that whatever evil was present in those images you uploaded, it is still going strong today. It's just that nowadays, it's a little more insidious, for it causes intelligent and well-minded humans to be blinded to its presence.
_______

That can be your point if you want. What it does for your original thesis about swearing I simply cannot fathom. But it's quite obvious that you had no interet in that and were just in the mood to do some angry grandad ranting weren't you? Real talk here, that is what this is now.

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From Schopenhauer's "Essay on Women."

Re: From Schopenhauer's "Essay on Women."

Re: From Schopenhauer's "Essay on Women."

Re: From Schopenhauer's "Essay on Women."

Re: From Schopenhauer's "Essay on Women."

Re: From Schopenhauer's "Essay on Women."

Re: From Schopenhauer's "Essay on Women."

Re: From Schopenhauer's "Essay on Women."

Re: From Schopenhauer's "Essay on Women."

Re: From Schopenhauer's "Essay on Women."

Re: From Schopenhauer's "Essay on Women."

Politer times that Seeds misses

Re: Politer times that Seeds misses

Re: From Schopenhauer's "Essay on Women."

Re: From Schopenhauer's "Essay on Women."

Re: Politer times that Seeds misses