The Philosophy Discussion Forum

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 2:29 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 2:19 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 12:59 pm But in the end, you have more issues with Biden and Obama, than Trump, is that correct?

I'm not American, Gary. Seeing the corruption in the Democrats does not, for me, entail loving anybody else. Only an American, bi-partisan as they always seem to be, could imagine that disliking one has to entail liking the other. That they can't get their heads out of the Republican-Democrat / Good-Bad dichotomy does not mean everybody else has to think that way, or does. And I don't.

Truth be told, I wouldn't choose ANY of our present leaders. So far as I'm concerned, they're all different degrees of bad. I don't see one whose morals and character I admire, or one I would have agreed should be allowed to run a pig farm, let alone the world's most powerful nation. And I would say the same about the politicians in my own country. In short, there are no ultimate answers in politics.

But Socialism is a particular plague upon humankind. Statistically, it's done more damage -- by orders of magnitude -- than any other ideology or force in history. Recognizing that means having special concern about all politicians who lean that way. Historically, they've all proved treacherous.

Christians also expect this. They know that human beings are not merely flawed, but many are often gleefully wicked, too. The old axiom about power corrupting is not pointless: give any man power, and the temptations increase accordingly. Where can we find the man who can be trusted with such power as rests in the hands of the American president? I do not think we have an answer to that.

I can think of nobody...just degrees of danger. But I can see that Socialism, historically, is the most dangerous lever a wicked and tyrannically-ambitious man can pull on. So I think we need special skepticism for all such big-government, collectivist and utopian projects. They kill people.

The only real answers are personal and spiritual. We cannot rely on politics, because politics is peopled by the corrupt, greedy and power-hungry. This is one small area in which Communists got one idea right: unless we have a new kind of man, all our political aspirations will turn to nightmares. You can't make good things out of corrupt people -- or as Jesus said, "...each tree is known by its own fruit. For people do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush." (Luke 6:44) Thus, you can't make good politics from wicked men.

This is why we need to be saved, Gary...from ourselves, first, and then from the consequences of our bad decisions. We need personal transformation. What we are is not good enough. Political projects of all kinds are too often nothing more than strenuous human attempts to live in denial of this unassailable fact. And that's why they fail.

If we need to be transformed, how does that happen? When do we know we've been "transformed"? When do we know a particular leader is better or worse than another? Or, if they're all bad, then what can we realistically hope for in this world, other than chaos and catastrophe? How does one know when to resist something and when not to?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 3:11 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 2:29 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 2:19 pm
I'm not American, Gary. Seeing the corruption in the Democrats does not, for me, entail loving anybody else. Only an American, bi-partisan as they always seem to be, could imagine that disliking one has to entail liking the other. That they can't get their heads out of the Republican-Democrat / Good-Bad dichotomy does not mean everybody else has to think that way, or does. And I don't.

Truth be told, I wouldn't choose ANY of our present leaders. So far as I'm concerned, they're all different degrees of bad. I don't see one whose morals and character I admire, or one I would have agreed should be allowed to run a pig farm, let alone the world's most powerful nation. And I would say the same about the politicians in my own country. In short, there are no ultimate answers in politics.

But Socialism is a particular plague upon humankind. Statistically, it's done more damage -- by orders of magnitude -- than any other ideology or force in history. Recognizing that means having special concern about all politicians who lean that way. Historically, they've all proved treacherous.

Christians also expect this. They know that human beings are not merely flawed, but many are often gleefully wicked, too. The old axiom about power corrupting is not pointless: give any man power, and the temptations increase accordingly. Where can we find the man who can be trusted with such power as rests in the hands of the American president? I do not think we have an answer to that.

I can think of nobody...just degrees of danger. But I can see that Socialism, historically, is the most dangerous lever a wicked and tyrannically-ambitious man can pull on. So I think we need special skepticism for all such big-government, collectivist and utopian projects. They kill people.

The only real answers are personal and spiritual. We cannot rely on politics, because politics is peopled by the corrupt, greedy and power-hungry. This is one small area in which Communists got one idea right: unless we have a new kind of man, all our political aspirations will turn to nightmares. You can't make good things out of corrupt people -- or as Jesus said, "...each tree is known by its own fruit. For people do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush." (Luke 6:44) Thus, you can't make good politics from wicked men.

This is why we need to be saved, Gary...from ourselves, first, and then from the consequences of our bad decisions. We need personal transformation. What we are is not good enough. Political projects of all kinds are too often nothing more than strenuous human attempts to live in denial of this unassailable fact. And that's why they fail.

If we need to be transformed, how does that happen? When do we know we've been "transformed"? When do we know a particular leader is better or worse than another? Or, if they're all bad, then what can we realistically hope for in this world, other than chaos and catastrophe? How does one know when to resist something and when not to?

What the Bible says about that, Gary, is that "all have sinned and fall short..." (Rm. 3:23) But God is willing to make the necessary changes in our character, for as many as will trust Him to do it. We will not be made instantly perfect, but rather gradually renewed in our minds (Rm. 12: 1-2) as we grow in our relationship to God, until we become more of what He intended us to be. Complete perfection awaits His coming...until we know God face-to-face, it's impossible to be completely transformed. But the process starts here and now, by entering into that relationship with God though the demonstration of His kind intentions toward us, Jesus Christ Himself.

This has political consequences. A renewed man can do better work. A man who walks in harmony with God will make better decisions, and consequently create better social structures. This is why societies influenced by Christianity are universally more compassionate, humane, free and happy than totalitarian, pagan, Socialist or monarchical, or theocratic ones, and why the oppressed of the world flood toward the West. Have you heard of anybody desperate to find freedom in Syria, or Congo, or Soviet Russia, or Haiti, or North Korea, due to the horrible oppression in the West? Personally, I've never heard of even one; but billions aspire to get to the West, and they vote with their feet. Did you ever ask yourself why? Why is the West so much better as a place to live? So the upshot of personal renewal is also better politics.

But beware of utopian projects. They expect perfection, and then become furious when it doesn't appear. And then the start robbing, torturing and killing people in order to make utopia come, because they feel righteous in seeking utopia -- and the more violent and extreme they show themselves to be in pursuit of utopia, the more they see themselves as virtuous and committed to it. So they never feel a constraint on what they will do in the service of that utopia; they've inverted wickedness with righteousness, and made a virtue of doing evil. And you can see this in every utopian state in history.

Western democracy isn't utopian. It doesn't aim at perfection because (as per the Christian influence) they don't assume human perfectability. They assume, instead, that a better political system is more to be desired than a worse one, but that none will reach perfection; and they guard against the fallibility of man by hedging their system with term limits, prescribed and separated powers, democratic input, constitutions, and so forth. That's just wise and realistic.

Socialists don't like that: it seems not to strive for something high enough, they would say. And they're right, in a sense: it's not high enough for perfection, for utopia. But it is that belief in human perfectability that is the source of all evil in Socialist systems; for because people begin to believe they're serving an ideal, they lose their consciences and begin to perform attrocities in the name of virtue -- a thing which the Bible long ago told us was bound to happen, interestingly.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 3:26 pm Interesting take on things. I can see some sense to that. I suppose if the wicked want to get a good cosy job as a politician, it is best not to say, "good people don't like me", even if it were the truth.

I avoid responsibility like the plague because I think I know that I'm about as imperfect as anyone can possibly be. It seems better to be a low life slouch than a high life slouch. At least on the bottom, hopefully, there's not too much I can screw up. But does that mean that everyone is a slouch like me? Aren't some people more on the ball and better choices to lead than others? And if so, how do we know which are which?

I mean, some people truly think they are better for a role, but they are not.

I mean, we live in a society where professional orators and psychologists tell us to be "confident". There's a saying in the business world, "fake it until you make it." How do we know if someone is faking it or not, until it's too late and they've already created a mess?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 6:23 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 4:10 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 3:26 pm Interesting take on things. I can see some sense to that. I suppose if the wicked want to get a good cosy job as a politician, it is best not to say, "good people don't like me", even if it were the truth.

I don't really understand the point of saying it at all, actually.

I avoid responsibility like the plague because I think I know that I'm about as imperfect as anyone can possibly be. It seems better to be a low life slouch than a high life slouch. At least on the bottom, hopefully, there's not too much I can screw up. But does that mean that everyone is a slouch like me? Aren't some people more on the ball and better choices to lead than others? And if so, how do we know which are which?

Well, there's something very fair, very democratic about the Bible's description of human nature -- "all have sinned." They may be little things, they may be medium, or they may be big; but they all "fall short of the glory of God." So we've all got a problem to deal with; the relative size of the problem is the only difference. But since "the wages of sin is death," because sin kills everything, we've all got a terminal problem, no matter how small we may believe it to be.

Hence the need for salvation. None of us is getting out of this situation without help.

So many people think they're "good people" for no more reason than that what they do doesn't bother them. But does the fact that I feel "not bothered" by my lying, or philandering, or covetousness, or self-righteousness have anything to do with what God knows I'm really like? Not a bit. The thing about God is that he knows stuff...and he's very, very consistent in what he approves and doesn't. I may see my faults as "little," but a little bit of cyanide will still kill me when I eat it. And a little sin will sever me from God.

So what's to be done? Only God can solve a problem like that. The sending of His Son was the manifestation of His intention to save us from what we'd gotten ourselves into...if we'd only believe it.

I mean, some people truly think they are better for a role, but they are not.

Now, there's a saying we should all write over our mantlepieces.

I mean, we live in a society where professional orators and psychologists tell us to be "confident". There's a saying in the business world, "fake it until you make it." How do we know if someone is faking it or not, until it's too late and they've already created a mess?

We don't, of course. Some people are excellent fakers. It's just a lot harder to fool God.

Impenitent wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 4:56 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 4:57 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 4:10 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 3:26 pm Interesting take on things. I can see some sense to that. I suppose if the wicked want to get a good cosy job as a politician, it is best not to say, "good people don't like me", even if it were the truth.

I don't really understand the point of saying it at all, actually.

I avoid responsibility like the plague because I think I know that I'm about as imperfect as anyone can possibly be. It seems better to be a low life slouch than a high life slouch. At least on the bottom, hopefully, there's not too much I can screw up. But does that mean that everyone is a slouch like me? Aren't some people more on the ball and better choices to lead than others? And if so, how do we know which are which?

Well, there's something very fair, very democratic about the Bible's description of human nature -- "all have sinned." They may be little things, they may be medium, or they may be big; but they all "fall short of the glory of God." So we've all got a problem to deal with; the relative size of the problem is the only difference. But since "the wages of sin is death," because sin kills everything, we've all got a terminal problem, no matter how small we may believe it to be.

Hence the need for salvation. None of us is getting out of this situation without help.

So many people think they're "good people" for no more reason than that what they do doesn't bother them. But does the fact that I feel "not bothered" by my lying, or philandering, or covetousness, or self-righteousness have anything to do with what God knows I'm really like? Not a bit. The thing about God is that he knows stuff...and he's very, very consistent in what he approves and doesn't. I may see my faults as "little," but a little bit of cyanide will still kill me when I eat it. And a little sin will sever me from God.

So what's to be done? Only God can solve a problem like that. The sending of His Son was the manifestation of His intention to save us from what we'd gotten ourselves into...if we'd only believe it.

I mean, some people truly think they are better for a role, but they are not.

Now, there's a saying we should all write over our mantlepieces.

I mean, we live in a society where professional orators and psychologists tell us to be "confident". There's a saying in the business world, "fake it until you make it." How do we know if someone is faking it or not, until it's too late and they've already created a mess?

We don't, of course. Some people are excellent fakers. It's just a lot harder to fool God.

What if God isn't there or what if God isn't interested in human conduct any more than he might be interested in the conduct of Chimpanzee societies?

What if it is up to each and every one of us to determine for ourselves if someone is a good leader or not, and that's as high up the ladder as it goes?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 5:17 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 4:57 pm What if it is up to each and every one of us to determine for ourselves if someone is a good leader or not, and that's as high up the ladder as it goes?

How's that been working out for you?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 5:25 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 5:17 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 4:57 pm What if it is up to each and every one of us to determine for ourselves if someone is a good leader or not, and that's as high up the ladder as it goes?

How's that been working out for you?

Well, I didn't vote for Trump. So far, my instincts seem to be pretty much on the spot.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 5:31 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 5:25 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 5:17 pm How's that been working out for you?

Well, I didn't vote for Trump. So far, my instincts seem to be pretty much on the spot.

Ah. So you're still thinking that if you get your own political affiliations sorted out, then all will be well? And purely negating Trump will be sufficient to secure to you a better alternative, you think?

Good luck with that plan.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 5:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 5:31 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 5:25 pm

Well, I didn't vote for Trump. So far, my instincts seem to be pretty much on the spot.

Ah. So you're still thinking that if you get your own political affiliations sorted out, then all will be well? And purely negating Trump will be sufficient to secure to you a better alternative, you think?

Good luck with that plan.

That's not my plan at all. My plan is to vote for someone who isn't a raving lunatic. Is there something wrong with that plan?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 5:42 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 5:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 5:31 pm
Ah. So you're still thinking that if you get your own political affiliations sorted out, then all will be well? And purely negating Trump will be sufficient to secure to you a better alternative, you think?

Good luck with that plan.

That's not my plan at all. My plan is to vote for someone who isn't a raving lunatic. Is there something wrong with that plan?

You're making the same mistake people always make: you're assuming all is well with human nature, so that all we need to do is adjust the politics, and things will work out.

All political arrangements are provisional. All can be corrupted. All need safeguards...and that's always the case, no matter which fallible human being you're putting in charge.

I think you're being too simplistic, Gary. And, if you don't mind me saying, I see this constantly in the "Hate Trump" crowd. It's almost as if they assume that Trump is the Devil, the one source of evil that, once eliminated, will take all evil and danger with him. But Trump is just another man...as we all are...and eliminating one man will only leave billions more who can slide into the place he's vacated, with no guarantees of whether that will be better or worse.

The problem's inside us, Gary...not simply "out there" in a place we can easily find it and eliminate it. And it certainly doesn't have one man's name.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 6:00 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 5:42 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 5:33 pm

That's not my plan at all. My plan is to vote for someone who isn't a raving lunatic. Is there something wrong with that plan?

You're making the same mistake people always make: you're assuming all is well with human nature, so that all we need to do is adjust the politics, and things will work out.

All political arrangements are provisional. All can be corrupted. All need safeguards...and that's always the case, no matter which fallible human being you're putting in charge.

I think you're being too simplistic, Gary. And, if you don't mind me saying, I see this constantly in the "Hate Trump" crowd. It's almost as if they assume that Trump is the Devil, the one source of evil that, once eliminated, will take all evil and danger with him. But Trump is just another man...as we all are...and eliminating one man will only leave billions more who can slide into the place he's vacated, with no guarantees of whether that will be better or worse.

The problem's inside us, Gary...not simply "out there" in a place we can easily find it and eliminate it. And it certainly doesn't have one man's name.

I don't think eliminating Trump is necessary. It would be better if Trump just didn't go breaking up Federal agencies and starting wars. Criticism is designed for people to take notice and change their behavior. Trump notoriously disregards public criticism. He's in his own world, living in his own private Idaho.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 6:09 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 6:00 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2026 5:42 pm
You're making the same mistake people always make: you're assuming all is well with human nature, so that all we need to do is adjust the politics, and things will work out.

All political arrangements are provisional. All can be corrupted. All need safeguards...and that's always the case, no matter which fallible human being you're putting in charge.

I think you're being too simplistic, Gary. And, if you don't mind me saying, I see this constantly in the "Hate Trump" crowd. It's almost as if they assume that Trump is the Devil, the one source of evil that, once eliminated, will take all evil and danger with him. But Trump is just another man...as we all are...and eliminating one man will only leave billions more who can slide into the place he's vacated, with no guarantees of whether that will be better or worse.

The problem's inside us, Gary...not simply "out there" in a place we can easily find it and eliminate it. And it certainly doesn't have one man's name.

I don't think eliminating Trump is necessary. It would be better if Trump just didn't go breaking up Federal agencies and starting wars. Criticism is designed for people to take notice and change their behavior. Trump notoriously disregards public criticism. He's in his own world, living in his own private Idaho.

You're still thinking in terms of politics, not of human nature. So long as you do that, you're going to find yourself betrayed...if not by Trump, then by the Dems, or the Socialists, or anybody else who manages to seize power.