Philosophy Now Forum

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 7:22 pm You really need to get this Rotherham thing out of your system.

You're mistaken...I never did anything at all to do with Rotherham. I just bring it up as obvious. I could have said London, for that matter.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 6:40 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 6:16 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 6:13 pm
Oh, dear.

Well, one day, maybe you'll know...

Until then, you're still amusing the heck out of me.

Are you dropping another of your clumsy hints that we should all be in awe of you and the many acheivments about which you are too humble to boast?

Yes...that's it. You've got me. How foolish I was to think I could fool you.

How inspiring. Well you are gifting me the last word in this matter, so here is the truth of the thing....

Had you understood entry level philosophy of language, then among other things you would know about Russell and Frege's competing theories regarding definite descriptors. There is no reason to need an opinion on which is better by the way. The fact is that with such understanding, you wouldn't have asked the question Who has this one "sense" you mention?. So I already knew you don't understand the topic and there is no point in you breaking out your smilies collection in yet another effort to condescend to me

Because you are too sinfully proud to learn anything from me, even when it is clear that I do know about stuff you don't sometimes, you are bullshitting Harbal an Astro out of sheer ignorance and arrogance. Not that they are falling for it, your bullshit really only works on Walker. You could still be arguing that questions about what is good can only be answered adequately in reference to the will and whatever it was of God on some basis that the concept of good requires some X that only such a model an offer.

The balkanisation of language that you propose with this absurd notion that people who don't share beliefs about the referent cannot share sense is something that every philosopher of language for the last 150 years at least (since Mill off the top of my head) has been trying to avoid in order to escape the obvious skeptical trap that you walk into with such abandon... Unless you have some next level stupid Berkeleyan argument that language only has meaning because the true concepts refer to ideas in the mind of God I suppose, in that case you would want the skeptical problem.

If you cannot accept that other people hold the same concept of good and bad as you do irrespective of what it is that they happen to consider exemplification of these concepts, you have broken language itself as a means of communication. You render langauge nothing but noises pointing at a set of incommunicable inner ideas with no means of comparison or translation.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:29 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 7:22 pm You really need to get this Rotherham thing out of your system.

You're mistaken...I never did anything at all to do with Rotherham. I just bring it up as obvious. I could have said London, for that matter.

I'm not mistaken, you are obsessed with Rotherham. Believe me, one visit and you'll never think about it ever again.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:34 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 6:40 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 6:16 pm
Are you dropping another of your clumsy hints that we should all be in awe of you and the many acheivments about which you are too humble to boast?

Yes...that's it. You've got me. How foolish I was to think I could fool you.

How inspiring. Well you are gifting me the last word in this matter, so here is the truth of the thing....

Sorry. I'm still not seeing how this helps you to argue that having more people have a different definition of a concept aids in communal understanding of statements that use the same word. I don't think anybody else finds it obvious, either.

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:42 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:29 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 7:22 pm You really need to get this Rotherham thing out of your system.

You're mistaken...I never did anything at all to do with Rotherham. I just bring it up as obvious. I could have said London, for that matter.

I'm not mistaken, you are obsessed with Rotherham. Believe me, one visit and you'll never think about it ever again.

And London? Same, you think?

But when did you get your penchant for knife-crime?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:48 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:42 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:29 pm
You're mistaken...I never did anything at all to do with Rotherham. I just bring it up as obvious. I could have said London, for that matter.

I'm not mistaken, you are obsessed with Rotherham. Believe me, one visit and you'll never think about it ever again.

And London? Same, you think?

London is a different country. Have you not heard of the north south divide? I've driven through London a few times, and based on that, I would say London is full of twats.

But when did you get your penchant for knife-crime?

I probably picked it up in junior school.

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 9:03 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:48 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:42 pm

I'm not mistaken, you are obsessed with Rotherham. Believe me, one visit and you'll never think about it ever again.

And London? Same, you think?

London is a different country. Have you not heard of the north south divide? I've driven through London a few times, and based on that, I would say London is full of twats.

Then, the point is made. You don't live in some idyllic Albion of homogeneous moral intuitions. You live, according to you, in a place where the majority of your population, who are housed in the south, live unworthily, to put it delicately.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:48 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:34 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 6:40 pm
Yes...that's it. You've got me. How foolish I was to think I could fool you.

How inspiring. Well you are gifting me the last word in this matter, so here is the truth of the thing....

Sorry. I'm still not seeing how this helps you to argue that having more people have a different definition of a concept aids in communal understanding of statements that use the same word. I don't think anybody else finds it obvious, either.

This isn't a question of definitions, we're not arguing over which dictionary is best. Those just define one word at a time using a set of other words. They don't explain how langauage can have meanings, they depend upon it already being there.

Before you can get to defining definite articles, there has to be a bedrock, a substrate, the Given, the irreducible, the stuff that holds the whole linguistic edifice up. Concepts in light of which other concepts can be defined, not ones that actually succumb to such definition themselves. How you go about addressing that is a matter of choice, there's many options here https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/meaning/

You might be familiar with the old philosophical parlour game of explaining the word "white" without ostensive definition by pointing at snow or paper etc. Good is another of those words. God, probably not.

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 9:03 pm London is a different country. Have you not heard of the north south divide? I've driven through London a few times, and based on that, I would say London is full of twats.

Criticism accepted

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 9:19 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:48 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:34 pm
How inspiring. Well you are gifting me the last word in this matter, so here is the truth of the thing....

Sorry. I'm still not seeing how this helps you to argue that having more people have a different definition of a concept aids in communal understanding of statements that use the same word. I don't think anybody else finds it obvious, either.

This isn't a question of definitions, we're not arguing over which dictionary is best.

No, we aren't. What you are trying to argue, it seems to me, is that it doesn't matter how many definitions of "God" people have, they'll all understand the same thing anyway...which is obviously not going to be the case at all.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 9:30 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 9:19 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:48 pm
Sorry. I'm still not seeing how this helps you to argue that having more people have a different definition of a concept aids in communal understanding of statements that use the same word. I don't think anybody else finds it obvious, either.

This isn't a question of definitions, we're not arguing over which dictionary is best.

No, we aren't. What you are trying to argue, it seems to me, is that it doesn't matter how many definitions of "God" people have, they'll all understand the same thing anyway...which is obviously not going to be the case at all.

You understand the word god when it appears in the sentence "this is a list of Greek gods and their preferred hats..." don't you?
You understand the word God when used as a definite descriptor for the Christian god.
When a muslim uses the word God as a definite descriptor to Allah the God of Islam, you understand that too.

If you didn't, communication with you would be impossible, rather than just exasperating.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 9:18 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 9:03 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:48 pm
And London? Same, you think?

London is a different country. Have you not heard of the north south divide? I've driven through London a few times, and based on that, I would say London is full of twats.

Then, the point is made. You don't live in some idyllic Albion of homogeneous moral intuitions. You live, according to you, in a place where the majority of your population, who are housed in the south, live unworthily, to put it delicately.

Yes, indeed, they are most inconsiderate drivers. I would stop short of calling them evil, though.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 9:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 9:30 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 9:19 pm
This isn't a question of definitions, we're not arguing over which dictionary is best.

No, we aren't. What you are trying to argue, it seems to me, is that it doesn't matter how many definitions of "God" people have, they'll all understand the same thing anyway...which is obviously not going to be the case at all.

You understand the word god when it appears in the sentence "this is a list of Greek gods and their preferred hats..." don't you? You understand the word God when used as a definite descriptor for the Christian god.

No. I understand different concepts are intended by the use of the word. Zeus has nothing whatsoever to do with the Judeo-Christian God. One is a contingent, mythical being with a short lifespan. The other is the eternal "I AM." They're not even remotely comparable; which is why we use small "g" "god" for Zeus, and the big "G" "God" for the only real one.

When a muslim uses the word God as a definite descriptor to Allah the God of Islam, you understand that too.

A different "god" again. Their "god" wants children pushed into minefields, and Jews wiped off the face of the Earth. Mine says, "Let the little children come to Me," and is the God of the Jews. They are decidedly not the same entity at all.

That's the importance of specifying one's conception of "god" or "God."

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 9:51 pm I would stop short of calling them evil, though.

I wonder if they'd do the same for you...actually, no, I don't: they wouldn't. We both know that. For them, you're just an infidel. So would I be, for that matter.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 9:20 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 9:03 pm London is a different country. Have you not heard of the north south divide? I've driven through London a few times, and based on that, I would say London is full of twats.

Criticism accepted

I only remembered you lived down there after I'd said it.

I was only referring to the way they drive. I'm sure they are all lovely people once they get out of their cars.