Philosophy Now Forum

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:17 pm Yes. But that does not mean that an imperfect God cannot exist.

An imperfect God can exist, but how valuable would that be?

Valuable for who and/or what?

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:06 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:17 pm Yes. But that does not mean that an imperfect God cannot exist.

An imperfect God can exist, but how valuable would that be?

Whatever exists as real by default, is true, factual and objective is conditioned upon a specific human based [intersubjective] FSK [model] of which the scientific FSK is the most real and objective.

As such, the claim God exists as real must be verifiable and justifiable within the scientific FSK, which mean bringing forth the evidences to be verified and justified by Science.
Generally God is claimed to exists based on faith [belief without any possibility of proof].
Thus it is impossible for God to exists as real, i.e. scientifically real.

So, whether God [based on faith] is claimed to be perfect or imperfect, it cannot be real in the most real sense like scientific realities, e.g. the Sun exists as real at present.

When theists claimed their God is absolutely perfect which is the ultimate claim [especially the Abrahamic religions], that claim of absolute perfection evidently reinforces the impossibility for God to exists as real.

phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:11 am Valuable for who and/or what?

You

phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:11 am Valuable for who and/or what?

You & humankind

Okay, enough of this nonsense.

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:06 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:17 pm Yes. But that does not mean that an imperfect God cannot exist.

An imperfect God can exist, but how valuable would that be?

An imperfect doctor can exist, but how valuable would that be?
An imperfect antibiotic, boat, solar system, cook, job, water source, shelter, superpower, brain, body.........

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 4:37 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:06 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:17 pm Yes. But that does not mean that an imperfect God cannot exist.

An imperfect God can exist, but how valuable would that be?

An imperfect doctor can exist, but how valuable would that be?
An imperfect antibiotic, boat, solar system, cook, job, water source, shelter, superpower, brain, body.........

That’s what I mean, bro.

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 7:36 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 4:37 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:06 am

An imperfect God can exist, but how valuable would that be?

An imperfect doctor can exist, but how valuable would that be?
An imperfect antibiotic, boat, solar system, cook, job, water source, shelter, superpower, brain, body.........

That’s what I mean, bro.

I don't understand. No doctor is perfect, but I find occasional use for them. My brain isn't perfect but it's a marvel. And so on.
Superman isn't perfect - kryptonite - but hey if he was around I'd consider it pretty darn potentially useful.
A deity that made some mistakes but had made the universe and so no. Hey, could be pretty useful.

Things that aren't perfect can't be useful? Then there's no useful tool I've ever used.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 7:15 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:06 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:17 pm Yes. But that does not mean that an imperfect God cannot exist.

An imperfect God can exist, but how valuable would that be?

Whatever exists as real by default, is true, factual and objective is conditioned upon a specific human based [intersubjective] FSK [model] of which the scientific FSK is the most real and objective.

As such, the claim God exists as real must be verifiable and justifiable within the scientific FSK, which mean bringing forth the evidences to be verified and justified by Science.
Generally God is claimed to exists based on faith [belief without any possibility of proof].
Thus it is impossible for God to exists as real, i.e. scientifically real.

So, whether God [based on faith] is claimed to be perfect or imperfect, it cannot be real in the most real sense like scientific realities, e.g. the Sun exists as real at present.

When theists claimed their God is absolutely perfect which is the ultimate claim [especially the Abrahamic religions], that claim of absolute perfection evidently reinforces the impossibility for God to exists as real.

Well said.

And if there are any theists who accept an imperfect God by faith, they are worshiping a worthless God.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:27 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:53 pm

If God must be perfect, and not merely supernatural, there can be no God.

If some 'thing' is SUPPOSEDLY so-called 'supernatural', when the 'supernatural' word is REFERRING TO some 'thing' that is outside of, above, beyond, or NOT a part of 'Nature' nor the 'Natural', then 'that thing' OBVIOUSLY can NOT exist', and therefore does NOT exist.

However, if some 'thing' IS so-called 'perfect', then 'this thing' could exist, and, in fact, ACTUALLY DOES EXIST.

But, OBVIOUSLY, NOT ALL people, in the days when this was being written BELIEVED 'this', NOR ACCEPTED 'this'. AGAIN, BECAUSE of 'their' PRE-EXISTING BELIEFS, and PRESUMPTIONS.

There cannot be a perfect God, because if God were perfect, children would not suffer. Humans would live in Utopia.

1. Children ONLY REALLY 'suffer' BECAUSE OF adult human beings, ONLY. (Now A DISCUSSION NEEDS to take place, FIRST, for 'this' to be Truly FULLY UNDERSTOOD).

2. Humans, ONCE, DID live in Utopia, AND, ONCE AGAIN, there WILL BE Utopia. Just AT the 'current moment', when this is being written, 'you', human beings, are in an evolving transitioning stage

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm But children do suffer, and humans do not live in Utopia.

But children do NOT ACTUALLY 'suffer', OF COURSE, outside of 'the way' that 'you', adult human beings, CAUSE 'their' and "other's" 'suffering'. Which WAS NECESSARY FOR the Utopia that IS about TO COME, to 'you', people, in the days when this WAS being written. (But AGAIN, for 'this' to be FULLY UNDERSTOOD A DISCUSSION NEEDS TO TAKE PLACE, FIRST).

Therefore, IF God exists, God is not perfect.[/quote]

So, following 'this logic', if adult human beings CHANGE 'their ways', which CREATES or CAUSED A Utopia, where children are NOT 'suffering', then IF God exists, then 'It' IS PERFECT, right?

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm Furthermore, if God is not perfect, he is not omnipotent, but rather only nearly omnipotent,

But HOW, EXACTLY, God IS PERFECT, and OMNIPOTENT, 'you' are NOT YET AWARE OF, because A DISCUSSION HAS NOT YET TAKEN PLACE.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm In the Torah it is written that God commands his followers to worship him on every Sabbath. But if God were imperfect, he might rather suggest that his followers worship him on three out of four Sabbaths, thus diluting his commandments.

'you', OBVIOUSLY, have NOT YET COME-TO and thus NOT YET ARRIVED AT the FULL and True UNDERSTANDING here.But 'this' is JUST BECAUSE 'you' are YET to have. FULL and Truly OPEN DISCUSSION, YET.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm This weakened God would barely be worthy of being called God.

Okay.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm So, there can be no perfect God and an imperfect God would be a weakened, vulnerable God.

BUT, FOLLOWING ON FROM 'your logic' here IF children are NOT 'suffering' and are living IN Utopia, then God would be PERFECT, that is; IF 'It' even exists, correct?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 8:54 pm ... A deity that made some mistakes but had made the universe and so no. Hey, could be pretty useful...

It sounds like this:
If something contributed to my existence, then it must have made sense, whatever it was.

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 10:08 pm Well said.

And if there are any theists who accept an imperfect God by faith, they are worshiping a worthless God.

So, imperfect = worthless.
What do you find of value in your life?
Any people?
Any things?
Any education?
Any relationship?
Any place?

nemos wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 11:29 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 8:54 pm ... A deity that made some mistakes but had made the universe and so no. Hey, could be pretty useful...

It sounds like this:
If something contributed to my existence, then it must have made sense, whatever it was.

I'm not sure what the first 'it' refers to.
Anyway, I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing or something else.
Is there a way you can rephrase this?

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 10:08 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 7:15 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:06 am
An imperfect God can exist, but how valuable would that be?

Whatever exists as real by default, is true, factual and objective is conditioned upon a specific human based [intersubjective] FSK [model] of which the scientific FSK is the most real and objective.

As such, the claim God exists as real must be verifiable and justifiable within the scientific FSK, which mean bringing forth the evidences to be verified and justified by Science.
Generally God is claimed to exists based on faith [belief without any possibility of proof].
Thus it is impossible for God to exists as real, i.e. scientifically real.

So, whether God [based on faith] is claimed to be perfect or imperfect, it cannot be real in the most real sense like scientific realities, e.g. the Sun exists as real at present.

When theists claimed their God is absolutely perfect which is the ultimate claim [especially the Abrahamic religions], that claim of absolute perfection evidently reinforces the impossibility for God to exists as real.

Well said.
And if there are any theists who accept an imperfect God by faith, they are worshiping a worthless God.

Yes, if imperfect it could be an inferior, cheapskate God, worthless but not totally worthless in the eyes of the believers.
There are many gods in polytheism that are recognized as imperfect [with some worth]. In many cases, these inferior gods are ruled by an ultimate perfect God, e.g. Brahman in Hinduism.

A theist who claims his God is imperfect which will then be inferior to another theist who claim his God is absolutely perfect, i.e. "a being than which no greater can be conceived" giving him greater confidence and a sense of superiority.
In this sense a theist with a perfect God can pray to his God to summon the inferior God to kiss its ass or do other derogatory vulgar acts or even kill the inferior God.

It is so rational and easy for any theists to claim the God is absolutely perfect so no other God can dominate their absolutely perfect God, there is nothing to stop him for doing so.
And this is why the majority of theists claim their God is absolutely perfect or omni-perfect.
This is in line with the one-up instinct that is so common in children's playground and with many adults as well.