Moral Compass

[Iwannaplato]

You pretend that you have a moral compass. And you say you are at the very center and core of what is moral. Yet you involve yourself in quintessential immorality as you show your true colors.

Is this socio-pathological? Some brought that accusation against you, remember?

The reason you cannot set me straight is because to the degree that I have morality, or appreciate it as imperative, is because it is not dependent on coercion by a phantasy picture of a terrifying but rather diabolical god-picture such as you are invested in.

Not only that, he frames it as an obligation. He has an obligation to give Harbal a warning. Then he's done his job - notice the echoes with P. Pilate - and now it's up to Harbal. From here he's ok with God torturing Harbal for eternity, should Harbal not heed. That's a God he could consider just and loving. But he fulfilled his contract.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Might as well post this: it adds to the conversational context!

[Ezekiel]

The Watchman’s Duty

33 Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Son of man, speak to the sons of your people and say to them, ‘If I bring a sword upon a land, and the people of the land take one man from among them and make him their watchman, and he sees the sword coming upon the land and blows the horn and warns the people, then someone who hears the sound of the horn but does not take warning, and a sword comes and takes him away, his blood will be on his own head. He heard the sound of the horn but did not take warning; his blood will be on himself. But had he taken warning, he would have saved his life. But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the horn and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away for his wrongdoing; but I will require his blood from the watchman’s hand.’

7 “Now as for you, son of man, I have appointed you as a watchman for the house of Israel; so you will hear a message from My mouth and give them a warning from Me. When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will certainly die,’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked about his way, that wicked person shall die for his wrongdoing, but I will require his blood from your hand. But if you on your part warn a wicked person to turn from his way and he does not turn from his way, he will die for his wrongdoing, but you have saved your life.

10 “Now as for you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what you have said: “Surely our offenses and our sins are upon us, and we are rotting away in them; how then can we survive?”’ Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure at all in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then should you die, house of Israel?’ And you, son of man, say to your fellow citizens, ‘The righteousness of a righteous one will not save him on the day of his offense, and as for the wickedness of a wicked one, he will not stumble because of it on the day when he turns from his wickedness; whereas a righteous one will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin.’ When I say to the righteous that he will certainly live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits injustice, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but for that same injustice of his which he has committed he will die. But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will certainly die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness, if a wicked person returns a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing injustice, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him. He has practiced justice and righteousness; he shall certainly live.

17 “Yet your fellow citizens say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right,’ when it is their own way that is not right. When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits injustice, then he shall die in it. But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them. Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ I will judge each of you according to his ways, house of Israel.”

Word of Jerusalem’s Capture

21 Now in the twelfth year of our exile, on the fifth of the tenth month, the survivor from Jerusalem came to me, saying, “The city has been taken.” Now the hand of the Lord had been upon me in the evening, before the survivors came. And He opened my mouth at the time they came to me in the morning; so my mouth was opened and I was no longer speechless.

23 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Son of man, they who live in these ruins in the land of Israel are saying, ‘Abraham was only one, yet he possessed the land; so to us who are many the land has been given as a possession.’ Therefore say to them, ‘This is what the Lord God says: “You eat meat with the blood in it, raise your eyes to your idols as you shed blood. Should you then possess the land? You rely on your sword, you commit abominations, and each of you defiles his neighbor’s wife. Should you then possess the land?”’ You shall say this to them: ‘This is what the Lord God says: “As I live, those who are in the places of ruins certainly will fall by the sword, and whoever is in the open field I will give to the animals to be devoured, and those who are in the strongholds and in the caves will die of plague. And I will make the land a desolation and a waste, and the pride of her power will be brought to an end; and the mountains of Israel will be deserted so that no one will pass through. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I make the land a desolation and a waste because of all their abominations which they have committed.”’

30 “But as for you, son of man, your fellow citizens who talk with one another about you by the walls and in the doorways of the houses, speak one with another, each with his brother, saying, ‘Come now and hear what the message is that comes from the Lord.’ And they come to you as people come, and sit before you as My people and hear your words, but they do not do them; for they do the lustful desires expressed by their mouth, and their heart follows their unlawful gain. And behold, you are to them like a love song by one who has a beautiful voice and plays well on an instrument; for they hear your words but they do not practice them. So when it comes—as it certainly will—then they will know that a prophet has been among them.”

[Iwannaplato]

Might as well post this: it adds to the conversational context!

[Ezekiel]

The Watchman’s Duty

I did that a few posts up. Yes, he is calling Harbal wicked and accepts that his loving, just God may well torture Harbal for all time. This neither makes him wonder about the nature of his diety, nor does it seem to concern him much: he's performed his obligation.

[Alexis Jacobi]

What is the point of warning somebody but not telling them what the warning is about?

That passage from Ezekiel is laden with moral imperative, and moral imperative is what we are really talking about given the thread title.

The notion of the importance of warning someone — a friend, one’s child, and oneself — about the consequences of failure to heed moral imperatives is certainly not a vain one.

Our moral consciousness is in that sense a creation — an historical achievement. Judaism, Greek philosophy, and the blending-bowl of Alexandria … this is the material and the locale with which and where it was forged.

It is (culturally, philosophically) impossible to jettison moral imperatives, and since Judaism and Christianity are infused with them, neither can be flippantly dismissed. (That has always been my position). They have to be understood.

[Immanuel Can]

But I have said enough to you, and the warning has been sent. That's what's called in Scripture the "watchman's" duty -- my obligation is to tell you, not to force you to believe anything. And I can see you know enough, and at present, refuse it.

Well, okay. My obligation's to you is fulfilled. What you do with it, that's on you.

What is the point of warning somebody but not telling them what the warning is about?

I have already done so, several times. However, you may not have been privy to all those conversations. So let me summarize here.

The warning is very simple: God will judge. Prepare. Jesus Christ is the way to prepare. (John 3:16)

Moreover, the events of the current time, particularly in Israel, would seem to urge haste. Those who are wise will act. Those who do not...well, we can only feel sorry for them; but it's their choice, and their choice will stand. The job of the Christian is to tell, not to compel.

And now, the telling is done.

[Immanuel Can]

I would, if you could be "set straight." I can see you don't want to be, and will not allow yourself to be. You've let your ego get in the way, and you're now just bucking the truth.

But I have said enough to you, and the warning has been sent. That's what's called in Scripture the "watchman's" duty -- my obligation is to tell you, not to force you to believe anything. And I can see you know enough, and at present, refuse it.

Well, okay. My obligation's to you is fulfilled. What you do with it, that's on you.

...scare tactics...

The truth can be scary. Whether or not it scares you has nothing to do with its truthfulness. But if it scares you, and it's the truth, then you'd better act.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Hush up, Immanuel. These quips that you imagine as potent embarrass your position even more.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Moreover, the events of the current time, particularly in Israel, would seem to urge haste. Those who are wise will act. Those who do not...well, we can only feel sorry for them; but it's their choice, and their choice will stand. The job of the Christian is to tell, not to compel.

At the very least he comes out a bit from his Christian Zionist closet.

[seeds]

Moreover, the events of the current time, particularly in Israel, would seem to urge haste. Those who are wise will act. Those who do not...well, we can only feel sorry for them; but it's their choice, and their choice will stand. The job of the Christian is to tell, not to compel.

At the very least he comes out a bit from his Christian Zionist closet.

I see that it's time to dust off one of my oft-used illustrations that depicts Mr. Can in his self-chosen role as the "daddy" explaining his position to his little girl...



Captions:

Little girl: “Please help me daddy, they’re hurting me! Please daddy, help me!”

Daddy: “Sorry punkin, but daddy’s in heaven now and heaven wouldn’t be ‘perfect’ if I had to worry about you.... Besides, we told you what would happen if you didn’t believe in ‘our’ concept of God.... By the way, how’s your grandma doing?... Oh never mind, why should I care?...I’m in heaven.”

God: “After she has suffered a billion years of unspeakable burning agony, she’ll be sorry she ignored me!... I will then continue her torture throughout all eternity.... Does anyone doubt the fairness of my judgment?”

1st angel: “Your fairness and mercy are without equal.”

2nd angel: “In the name of love she’s getting exactly what she deserves.”

And, of course, beneath the daughter and the demons is not Satan, but God; the creator and sustainer of all realities - including Hell.

Clearly, the powerful magnetic pull of something infinitely insidious and evil has greatly influenced the direction in which Mr. Can's moral compass points.
_______

[Lacewing]

Clearly, the powerful magnetic pull of something infinitely insidious and evil has greatly influenced the direction in which Mr. Can's moral compass points.

It certainly seems so!

[Harbal]

But I have said enough to you, and the warning has been sent. That's what's called in Scripture the "watchman's" duty -- my obligation is to tell you, not to force you to believe anything. And I can see you know enough, and at present, refuse it.

Well, okay. My obligation's to you is fulfilled. What you do with it, that's on you.

What is the point of warning somebody but not telling them what the warning is about?

I have already done so, several times. However, you may not have been privy to all those conversations. So let me summarize here.

The warning is very simple: God will judge. Prepare. Jesus Christ is the way to prepare. (John 3:16)

Moreover, the events of the current time, particularly in Israel, would seem to urge haste. Those who are wise will act. Those who do not...well, we can only feel sorry for them; but it's their choice, and their choice will stand. The job of the Christian is to tell, not to compel.

And now, the telling is done.

And in addition I would just like to warn everyone not to walk under any ladders, or break any mirrors. One can't be too careful.

[Janoah]

Will you go so far as to deny the legitimacy of Israel's claim to the Land?

Rabbi Immanuel, the crowds of Judeophobic enthusiasts do not need any proof; their lust for malice prevails over any proof.

And for those chosen ones who are not Judeophobic, it is natural for them that the Jews return to Judea.

[Immanuel Can]

Will you go so far as to deny the legitimacy of Israel's claim to the Land?

Rabbi Immanuel, the crowds of Judeophobic enthusiasts do not need any proof; their lust for malice prevails over any proof.

I'm flattered, but I'm no rabbi, Janoah, just a lowly disciple...although I confess that my Rabbi is a Jew.

I don't doubt that antisemites will deny whatever HaShem has revealed. They have no love for Him. To them, nothing is proof. But how about the Jews themselves? If they do not believe they have a deed from God, then what is their rightful title to the Holy Land? That they want it? That they like it? Surely that is not enough to justify any Israelite claim.

At the same time, I notice that you have not really answered my question. Shall I pose it again? Did YHWH actually give the Land to the Jews, or did Abraham only hallucinate that? It's very important that we know, of course.

What's my point? That if the Almighty did deed the land to his Hebrew children in perpetuity, then that's a miracle. But did you not tell me that I ought not to believe in miracles, because of the assumptions of Uninformitarianism?

[Lacewing]

The job of the Christian is to tell, not to compel.

And now, the telling is done.

So are you done?

[Janoah]

Unless HaShem is a real Person, and actually intervened in the world to speak to Abraham in a miraculous way, it seems to me that Israel's bereft of claim to the Land.

First of all, nothing material is inherent in God.

The Promised Land was promised to confirm an adequate worldview. The affirmation of a false worldview is the reason to lose the Promised.