Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:03 am**

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:47 am
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:38 am This entire earth is a haunted house.
I live near a haunted tunnel. I think it's mainly haunted by old car tyres, though.

I'm getting tired of tyres being dumped everywhere.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:12 am**

Where the rubber meets the road - the point at which a theory or idea is put to a practical test.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:49 am**

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:17 am The 'word 'soul' is a known concept. But it is an abstraction. It's an idea.

Ideas are multiple and plenty within the 'thought sphere'
Ideas such like ''eternal'' and ''essence of being or identity'' and ''connection to God'', etc.

Each of these ideas is itself an abstraction, so the 'soul' is an abstraction of abstractions.

Some people think that the soul is a real ''thing'' of some kind, a substance or real form or object, but it's not an object, as there's no evidence whatsoever for the existence of souls as an actual objective thing. As an idea, yes, but not a thing. 'Soul' is just another label given to an idea.

Who makes up these ideas?
A: is simply thought.
Thought is an artificial overlay upon this immediate present unknowing reality.

Any thought thing can appear to the screen of empty imageless consciousness, the only knowing there is. But there is simply emptiness behind every overlaid idea upon this empty screen of consciousness.

EVERY word it could be argued is a known concept, an abstraction, and an idea.

Also, you seem to be under the illusion or BELIEF that some 'thing' HAS TO BE a visibly seen physical object in order to be REAL, is this correct?

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:53 am**

Age wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:49 am
Also, you seem to be under the illusion or BELIEF that some 'thing' HAS TO BE a visibly seen physical object in order to be REAL, is this correct?

What do you mean here, exactly, by the word,"real"?

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:02 am**

Age wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:49 am
Also, you seem to be under the illusion or BELIEF that some 'thing' HAS TO BE a visibly seen physical object in order to be REAL, is this correct?

A physical tangible object is as real as the word 'real' is given meaning by the only knowing there is which is imageless consciousness.

'Meaning' is known conceptually in this conception, as the knower is inseparable from an object known.

Consciousness is the only knowing there is. Consciousness is not seen, it is only KNOWN and that which is KNOWN...KNOWS NOTHING.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:04 am**

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:55 pm
Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:25 am ...not to be found anywhere in one's DNA and if not there, nowhere. Nature found it completely unnecessary to provide one probably because it contributes no useful function where life itself is concerned. Nature deals in physics, not personal metaphysics...the means by which we recreate ourselves, jettisoned into some form of anti-gravitational spirituality beyond the earth-bound vulgar reality which created us.

As a species capable of but hardly ever accomplishing enlightenment. WE deserve more!

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 6:50 am That's astonishing. It does appear this entity does require us to have some faith in its existence for it to reveal anything to us (as individuals).
Don't know if I'm reading you right, it seems somewhat circular. You seem to be saying that one must have faith in the soul's existence as a precondition for someone to believe in the existence of a higher power. Have I got that right?

If that's what you mean then sorry, I can't see the connection on any level.

No that's not what I am saying. I am saying that in relation to considering 'soul' one must consider something more to reality than typical atheist short-sighted belief. That to have enlightenment with regards to the soul and God/'God' this entity through scripture has insisted on us having some degree of faith prior to us ever being provided with the insight (enlightenment) re its existence.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:55 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 6:50 am So, what enlightenment is to be provided to an atheist!? (in relation to the subject at hand)
That depends on the atheist or whether he even chooses to search for enlightenment...which can mean anything to anybody, ranging from belief to near certified facts. For me, enlightenment consists mostly of getting rid of old prejudices, of which history is replete...attempting to see without distortion; removing the blinders, allowing the light to advance into one's eyeballs and from there into one's brain.

Sure, but this thread is about the 'soul' so I am questioning you regarding demands of enlightenment pertaining to that...thus, if one truly wants some actual insight, enlightenment to be provided from God (re soul), then one needs to make a binary decision that is not atheism.

You don't have to accept 'old prejudices', 'distortions' etc..to consider a theist mindset...even as is my case as a Christian.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:10 am**

Age wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:49 am
EVERY word it could be argued is a known concept, an abstraction, and an idea.

Also, you seem to be under the illusion or BELIEF that some 'thing' HAS TO BE a visibly seen physical object in order to be REAL, is this correct?

The words 'real' 'thing' 'illusion' and 'belief' are known concepts in this conception as they are conceived to mean, by imageless consciousness.

In knowing the meaning of words, all that is known is 'meaning'.

In 'not knowing', everything is known.

From belief to clarity.

No claim, no blame, no fame.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:22 am**

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:53 am
Age wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:49 am
Also, you seem to be under the illusion or BELIEF that some 'thing' HAS TO BE a visibly seen physical object in order to be REAL, is this correct?
What do you mean here, exactly, by the word,"real"?

NOT illusory NOR fictional.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:53 am**

Age wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:22 am
Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:53 am What do you mean here, exactly, by the word,"real"?
NOT illusory NOR fictional.

You said, "you seem to be under the illusion or BELIEF that some 'thing' HAS TO BE a visibly seen physical object in order to be REAL," but can any non-physical thing be anything other than illusory? It could even be argued that physical things are also illusory in that our perception of them is self constructed.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:09 am**

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:53 am
Age wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:22 am
Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:53 am What do you mean here, exactly, by the word,"real"?
NOT illusory NOR fictional.
You said, "you seem to be under the illusion or BELIEF that some 'thing' HAS TO BE a visibly seen physical object in order to be REAL," but can any non-physical thing be anything other than illusory? It could even be argued that physical things are also illusory in that our perception of them is self constructed.

Or to word it differently in that last part - that we don't see the physical objects. We see effects of effects of effects of them and not just of them.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:18 am**

Age wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 1:26 pm
MagsJ wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 6:00 am The soul.. the Innate self.. the spritely spirit, within.

What we are and what we are to become, so what we shall eventually be.
NOT EXACTLY True and Right, but probably the CLOSEST, SO FAR.

I went for a poetic slant.. probably befitting to the elusiveness, of that, which is the soul.

The soul may be what animates us, so being our energy field.. our dynamos within, being the creator of that life force.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:38 am**

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:53 am
Age wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:22 am
Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:53 am What do you mean here, exactly, by the word,"real"?
NOT illusory NOR fictional.
You said, "you seem to be under the illusion or BELIEF that some 'thing' HAS TO BE a visibly seen physical object in order to be REAL," but can any non-physical thing be anything other than illusory? It could even be argued that physical things are also illusory in that our perception of them is self constructed.

Very well said Harby

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:41 am**

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:02 am
Age wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:49 am
Also, you seem to be under the illusion or BELIEF that some 'thing' HAS TO BE a visibly seen physical object in order to be REAL, is this correct?
A physical tangible object is as real as the word 'real' is given meaning by the only knowing there is which is imageless consciousness.

BUT, to you, does a 'thing' HAVE TO BE a 'physical tangible object' to be real?

Or, in other words, can a 'thing', which is NOT a 'physical tangible object' be real?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:02 am 'Meaning' is known conceptually in this conception, as the knower is inseparable from an object known.

There is NO ACTUAL 'separation' ANYWAY. Full stop.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:02 am Consciousness is the only knowing there is.

According to WHO or WHAT, EXACTLY?

According to 'Consciousness', Itself, OR according to 'you', the one here known as "dontaskme"?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:02 am Consciousness is not seen,

So what?

And, AGAIN, does this mean because 'Consciousness' can NOT be physically seen, then 'It' is NOT real?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:02 am it is only KNOWN and that which is KNOWN...KNOWS NOTHING.

So, to you, Consciousness KNOWS NOTHING, BUT is the ONLY 'knowing' there is.

Which, ONCE AGAIN, on first glance seems VERY, VERY CONTRADICTORY.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:44 am**

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:04 am
Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:55 pm
Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:25 am ...not to be found anywhere in one's DNA and if not there, nowhere. Nature found it completely unnecessary to provide one probably because it contributes no useful function where life itself is concerned. Nature deals in physics, not personal metaphysics...the means by which we recreate ourselves, jettisoned into some form of anti-gravitational spirituality beyond the earth-bound vulgar reality which created us.

As a species capable of but hardly ever accomplishing enlightenment. WE deserve more!

Don't know if I'm reading you right, it seems somewhat circular. You seem to be saying that one must have faith in the soul's existence as a precondition for someone to believe in the existence of a higher power. Have I got that right?

If that's what you mean then sorry, I can't see the connection on any level.
No that's not what I am saying. I am saying that in relation to considering 'soul' one must consider something more to reality than typical atheist short-sighted belief. That to have enlightenment with regards to the soul and God/'God' this entity through scripture has insisted on us having some degree of faith prior to us ever being provided with the insight (enlightenment) re its existence.

But God NEVER 'insists' ANY 'thing'.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:04 am
Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:55 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 6:50 am So, what enlightenment is to be provided to an atheist!? (in relation to the subject at hand)
That depends on the atheist or whether he even chooses to search for enlightenment...which can mean anything to anybody, ranging from belief to near certified facts. For me, enlightenment consists mostly of getting rid of old prejudices, of which history is replete...attempting to see without distortion; removing the blinders, allowing the light to advance into one's eyeballs and from there into one's brain.
Sure, but this thread is about the 'soul' so I am questioning you regarding demands of enlightenment pertaining to that...thus, if one truly wants some actual insight, enlightenment to be provided from God (re soul), then one needs to make a binary decision that is not atheism.

The words 'God' and 'soul' refer to TWO VERY DIFFERENT 'things'.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:04 am You don't have to accept 'old prejudices', 'distortions' etc..to consider a theist mindset...even as is my case as a Christian.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:47 am**

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:10 am
Age wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:49 am
EVERY word it could be argued is a known concept, an abstraction, and an idea.

Also, you seem to be under the illusion or BELIEF that some 'thing' HAS TO BE a visibly seen physical object in order to be REAL, is this correct?
The words 'real' 'thing' 'illusion' and 'belief' are known concepts in this conception as they are conceived to mean, by imageless consciousness.

Besides this being NOT necessarily true, it ALSO does NOT answer the ACTUAL QUESTION that I posed, and asked here.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:10 am In knowing the meaning of words, all that is known is 'meaning'.

In 'not knowing', everything is known.

From belief to clarity.

No claim, no blame, no fame.

Are you ABLE to ANSWER QUESTIONS posed and asked?

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