Philosophy Now Forum

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 1:55 pm

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 1:53 pm “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven"

Heaven is not on Earth according to the Bible.

Fine. In a few generations we'll be off this planet.

If we don't get off we already know what awaits us - the same thing which awaited the dinosaurs. Brimstone raining from the skies. If you ask me - it's very close to hell.

You need to leanr to understand, not just read those metaphors.

It takes a worried man to sing a worried song, You can worry about brimstone but that is an impracticak worry.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:45 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 3:50 pm The discussion can be divided into three parts:
1) Origin of Evil,
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment, and
3) Natural Evil.

1) Origin of Evil: We all read the story of fall. What is missing in this story is however finding the origin of evil. The question is if God is good and His creation is good then where did evil originally come from?
2) Deception of Eve and her punishment: Why did God punish a naive person who was deceived?
3) Natural Evil: Why do we suffer for the sins of others (Adam and Eve)?

This discussion will get entangled in a mess when you have not specifically define what is evil.

Regardless of whatever the origin of evil, we need a Definition of Evil, which is;
What is good is not-evil.
What is evil is any act or thoughts of agency that is a net-negative to the well-being of the individual and to humanity towards the preservation of the human species.

Generally the Problem of Evil is,

• 1. God is defined as an agent that is omni-whatever [in favor of God] and that includes omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omni-compassion, omni-empathic.
  If God exists as real with above qualities, then the omnipotent God will not allow or will prevent evil to emerge in reality.

What are you basing this on, EXACTLY?

And, when you learn and understand what 'reality' ACTUALLY IS, EXACTLY, then you will SEE and UNDERSTAND does NOT allow or will prevent 'evil' to emerge into 'reality'.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:45 am 2. The reality is, the acts of evil [by the supposed God and humans] occur and had happened and will happen in the future.

oNLY IF 'you', adult human beings, Carey on the same way as you do now when this is being written.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:45 am 3. Therefore God cannot exists as real, otherwise 2 would not be a reality[/list]
NOT necessarily so.
This is precisely the problem of evil as commonly posited by non-theists.

This is a great example of what is related from being CLOSED

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:45 am There is no need to discuss other matters, e.g. point 1, 2 and 3 above which should be raised as separate topics.

IF ANY one wants to discuss 1. 2. or 3, then let us proceed.

You have to define Evil and the Moral Order.

seeds wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 3:27 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:45 am Generally the Problem of Evil is,

• 1. God is defined as an agent that is omni-whatever [in favor of God] and that includes omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omni-compassion, omni-empathic.
  If God exists as real with above qualities, then the omnipotent God will not allow or will prevent evil to emerge in reality.

...OR...

...an omnipotent (and "All-Knowing") Being, might actually have a logical reason for allowing evil to exist.

I/He/It does, depending on which way you LOOK AT and SEE things.

seeds wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 3:27 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:45 am

• 2. The reality is, the acts of evil [by the supposed God and humans] occur and had happened and will happen in the future.

True!

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:45 am

• 3. Therefore God cannot exists as real, otherwise 2 would not be a reality

False!

You are the equivalent of an "amoeba" (who doesn't realize he's an amoeba) trying to analyze the ontological status and motives of the creator of your petri dish.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:45 am This is precisely the problem of evil as commonly posited by non-theists.

There is no "problem of evil."

The universe is operating according to design.
_______

promethean75 wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pm "an omnipotent (and "All-Knowing") Being, might actually have a logical reason for allowing evil to exist."

Of course, but the logical conflict is this: if god is, as stated, 'omnipotent' - which means able to do and/or make happen whatever is logically possible (circulatory there, btw) - he should be able to achieve the same result, the same end(s), without including the existence of 'evil' at all.

WHY would you denote God as being male gendered?

And, just like you 'should' be able to STOP "yourself" ABUSING “others", including children, does NOT mean that you DO. What God 'should' do, according to a human being, ALSO does NOT mean that God will.

You 'should' STOP ABUSING children, so WHY do you NOT?

In different words, whatever it is that god is doing, it must either include that evil, in which case god and the plan permits it on purpose, or it didn't have to include that evil, but did, in which case god is not omnipotent.[/quote]

This does NOT logically follow.

The REASON you, adult human beings, CHOOSE TO and are ALLOWED TO do 'evil' is for a very specific reason and purpose. God CHOOSING to ALLOW 'you:, "human beings" to do evil does NOT mean that God is NOT omnipotent. It could just mean God does NOT give that much IMPORTANCE to 'you', human beings,as you would like and wish for. After all 'you' are NO more important than ANY OTHER thing.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pm he couldn't stop it if he tried, in other words. This fact immediately demotes god.

'demotes' God to what, EXACTLY?

What is higher or more important than. God?

promethean75 wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pm But it's a simple argument and nothing to get excited about.

So the problem is that. There shouldn't have to be 'evil' in the world if god can do and make happen anything that is logical or logically possible, i.e., god can't make a square triangle, etc.

:you', adult human beings, are the ONLY things in the 'world' that do 'evil', so if you inherently KNOW that it is the Wrong thing to do, then WHY do you NOT just STOP doing 'evil' things?

promethean75 wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pm The heavenly state of existence beside or with God or whatever for eternity is a state of events God would be able to create without including the creation of human life on earth and the existence of evil.

He coulda skipped that part entirely if, indeed, he could do anything logically possible. If he couldn't and still cain't, he cain't be plato's or Aquinas's god.

If he is, he's either impotent or evil.

ANOTHER FALLACY and Wrong conclusion.

Even you said, OR THE PLAN PERMITS IT ON PURPOSE.

WHEN you UNDERSTAND the 'purpose', then you ALSO UNDERSTAND WHY it is permitted.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm He could create a perfect world. Instead, He prefers to leave us in a state of ignorance until death by creating an imperfect world for a purpose that we should not know. I call this nonsense.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm He (she/it) has indeed created the perfect world. You are just not conscious enough to realize it.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 2:11 pm The fact that we are not conscious enough means that the world He created is not perfect.

seeds wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:21 pm Does the fact that a human fetus is not yet fully-conscious while it is suspended within its mother's womb, mean that her womb is not "perfect" for the purpose of bringing that fetus into existence?

Well, the same thing applies to God's "cosmic womb" (the universe) and how it is the perfect physiological structure for bringing our minds/eternal souls into existence.

bahman, I have a newsflash for you:

I know you believe otherwise, but your mind did not exist prior to your birth on this planet.

The bottom line is that even God requires an ordered process by-which to awaken her offspring into existence (as opposed to the "snap" of divine fingers).

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 9:05 pm God does not require an ordered process in order to bring humans to existence...

You say he doesn't, I say he does.

How do you want to settle this? Pistols at dawn?...

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 9:05 pm if He is Omnipotent and Omniscient. He could in fact creates all humans in an instant in Heaven...

At the "snap" of divine fingers like Q from Star Trek?...



... Nonsense!

Like the writers and subsequent interpreters of the mythological codswallop handed down to us in the world's religions, you are a victim of over-imagining what the word "omnipotent" means.

And I furthermore suspect that you are a victim of thinking that "Heaven" resembles the silly nonsense depicted in Christian or Islamic mythology.

seeds wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:21 pm Rather than complaining about evil...

(though I must admit that I've done my fair share of that)

...I nevertheless prefer trying to do something about it.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 9:05 pm Why are you trying to do something about evil?

Why are you not?

seeds wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:21 pm Just to simplify this, look at the world and pick out, say, 3 specific evils that you think God should eliminate.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 9:05 pm Well, let me pick one. Do you think that a gazelle that is eaten alive by lions is having a good time?

Do you eat meat?

Do you think that the animals (cattle, pigs, and chickens, for example) being inhumanely raised and slaughtered in factory farms, are having a good time?...





God isn't forcing humans to eat meat. Nor is God slitting the cow's throat or sledgehammering the pig in the above images. In which case, it would seem that the majority of evil experienced by certain animals is caused by humans, and not God.

The point is that if you are concerned about what the lion does to the gazelle in order to feed itself and its cubs, then if you eat meat, you are a hypocrite who could instantly help reduce a tiny bit of (unnecessary) evil on earth by never eating meat again.

Are you willing to do that?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 9:05 pm Do animals also subjected to God's plan and go to Heaven upon death, etc.?

No.

I suggest that contrary to popular hopes and beliefs, "socks" the cat, and "spot" the dog...



...do not join us in the afterlife.

Again, you are a victim of the silly assumptions and misinterpretations of what the afterlife entails.

I suggest that what awaits us after death is far more logical and, especially, far more "purposeful" than what we have been brainwashed into imagining.
_______

puto wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 2:53 pm You have to define Evil and the Moral Order.

Whatever God prohibits.

seeds wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 5:13 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 9:04 pm He could create a perfect world. Instead, He prefers to leave us in a state of ignorance until death by creating an imperfect world for a purpose that we should not know. I call this nonsense.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 7:55 pm He (she/it) has indeed created the perfect world. You are just not conscious enough to realize it.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 2:11 pm The fact that we are not conscious enough means that the world He created is not perfect.

seeds wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:21 pm Does the fact that a human fetus is not yet fully-conscious while it is suspended within its mother's womb, mean that her womb is not "perfect" for the purpose of bringing that fetus into existence?

Well, the same thing applies to God's "cosmic womb" (the universe) and how it is the perfect physiological structure for bringing our minds/eternal souls into existence.

bahman, I have a newsflash for you:

I know you believe otherwise, but your mind did not exist prior to your birth on this planet.

The bottom line is that even God requires an ordered process by-which to awaken her offspring into existence (as opposed to the "snap" of divine fingers).

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 9:05 pm God does not require an ordered process in order to bring humans to existence...

You say he doesn't, I say he does.

How do you want to settle this? Pistols at dawn?...

No, there is no need for pistols. Please read the following.

seeds wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 5:13 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 9:05 pm if He is Omnipotent and Omniscient. He could in fact creates all humans in an instant in Heaven...

At the "snap" of divine fingers like Q from Star Trek?...



... Nonsense!

Like the writers and subsequent interpreters of the mythological codswallop handed down to us in the world's religions, you are a victim of over-imagining what the word "omnipotent" means.

And I furthermore suspect that you are a victim of thinking that "Heaven" resembles the silly nonsense depicted in Christian or Islamic mythology.

If God is Omniscient then He knows what is the right combination of atoms to make a human. He has to know this otherwise He could not make humans through the process we call evolution. If God is omnipotent then He can create atoms in the proper place to make a human. He can do this since this is possible through a random process we call evolution. He could in fact create humans in Heaven. Instead, He decided to leave the creation of humans to a random and blind process.

seeds wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 5:13 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:21 pm Rather than complaining about evil...

(though I must admit that I've done my fair share of that)

...I nevertheless prefer trying to do something about it.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 9:05 pm Why are you trying to do something about evil?

Why are you not?

To me, evil is as fundamental as good. It is necessary sometimes. Sometimes you cannot avoid it.

seeds wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 5:13 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:21 pm Just to simplify this, look at the world and pick out, say, 3 specific evils that you think God should eliminate.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 9:05 pm Well, let me pick one. Do you think that a gazelle that is eaten alive by lions is having a good time?

Do you eat meat?

Do you think that the animals (cattle, pigs, and chickens, for example) being inhumanely raised and slaughtered in factory farms, are having a good time?...





God isn't forcing humans to eat meat. Nor is God slitting the cow's throat or sledgehammering the pig in the above images. In which case, it would seem that the majority of evil experienced by certain animals is caused by humans, and not God.

The point is that if you are concerned about what the lion does to the gazelle in order to feed itself and its cubs, then if you eat meat, you are a hypocrite who could instantly help reduce a tiny bit of (unnecessary) evil on earth by never eating meat again.

Are you willing to do that?

I eat all sorts of foods with respect. I thanks all sort of food for dying for me.

seeds wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 5:13 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 9:05 pm Do animals also subjected to God's plan and go to Heaven upon death, etc.?

No.

I suggest that contrary to popular hopes and beliefs, "socks" the cat, and "spot" the dog...



...do not join us in the afterlife.

Again, you are a victim of the silly assumptions and misinterpretations of what the afterlife entails.

I suggest that what awaits us after death is far more logical and, especially, far more "purposeful" than what we have been brainwashed into imagining.
_______

What is the purpose of animal suffering then?

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:46 pm If God is Omniscient then He knows what is the right combination of atoms to make a human. He has to know this otherwise He could not make humans through the process we call evolution.

Right.

And it is through the process of evolution on this planet that bodies and, especially, brains are created. And it is the special way that atoms are arranged in the brain that allows God to bring-forth and awaken a new mind/soul into existence.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:46 pm If God is omnipotent then He can create atoms in the proper place to make a human. He can do this since this is possible through a random process we call evolution.

You just suggested in the quote prior to this one that God makes humans through the process of evolution. Now, all of a sudden, evolution is a "random process"?

Try to keep track of how your statements are contradicting each other.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:46 pm He could in fact create humans in Heaven.

It's not that I cannot be wrong, but, again, bahman, no.

Try to get it into your thick skull that God requires an actual physiological process (i.e., a physical brain) by which to awaken a new mind/soul into existence.

I'm talking about a new mind/soul that is just like God's mind/soul, but momentarily exists in a "semi-conscious" (not yet fully-born/embryonic) state of being.

And it is through the process of death that this new mind/soul is birthed (delivered/fully-born) out of this universe (God's "cosmic womb") and into "true reality" where it then awakens into "full-consciousness" and into the same form as God...



A couple of the Biblical quotes in the illustration read as follows...

"...I shall change your vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto my glorious body, according to the working whereby I am able even to subdue all things unto myself..."

"...it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is..."

All of which implies that...

We and God are of the same species of being.

The point is that, no, God doesn't want to create "humans" in Heaven, she wants to conceive and give birth to her own literal offspring here on earth; offspring who can then join her in Heaven ("true reality") as her equals. I'm talking about equals who are each imbued with the same abilities as God herself.

Like I keep suggesting, our ultimate form and eternal destiny is so amazing and so wonderful that it must be kept hidden from us until death so that we are not tempted to seek it out prematurely.

seeds wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 5:13 pm God isn't forcing humans to eat meat. Nor is God slitting the cow's throat or sledgehammering the pig in the above images. In which case, it would seem that the majority of evil experienced by certain animals is caused by humans, and not God.

The point is that if you are concerned about what the lion does to the gazelle in order to feed itself and its cubs, then if you eat meat, you are a hypocrite who could instantly help reduce a tiny bit of (unnecessary) evil on earth by never eating meat again.

Are you willing to do that?

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:46 pm I eat all sorts of foods with respect. I thanks all sort of food for dying for me.

Then you are an active and willing contributor to the evil that certain animals must endure.

So, stop blaming God for their suffering when, in truth, you are to blame.
_______

seeds wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 3:27 pm ...an omnipotent (and "All-Knowing") Being, might actually have a logical reason for allowing evil to exist.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 4:39 amAmoeba?? talking about yourself who is so ignorant with the limitation of logic.

Logical reason??
Note I argued Logic is merely concluding half-truths.
viewtopic.php?p=571101#p571101

I am certain Hitler and many "intelligent" dictators and those who committed genocides and other evil acts were acting very logically BUT NOT empathically nor compassionately.
Ted Bundy who was a serial killer who killed many was a highly intelligent person who relied on logic to lure the women he killed.

Where is the omnibenevolence, omni-empathy and omi-compassion in your GOD. In the weakness of these qualities your God is omni-psychopathic.

Seed, you missed this i.e. that your God is likely omni-psychopathic.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 4:39 am

seeds wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 3:27 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 5:45 am Generally the Problem of Evil is,

• 1. God is defined as an agent that is omni-whatever [in favor of God] and that includes omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omni-compassion, omni-empathic.
  If God exists as real with above qualities, then the omnipotent God will not allow or will prevent evil to emerge in reality.

...OR...

...an omnipotent (and "All-Knowing") Being, might actually have a logical reason for allowing evil to exist.

Amoeba?? talking about yourself who is so ignorant with the limitation of logic.

Logical reason??
Note I argued Logic is merely concluding half-truths.
viewtopic.php?p=571101#p571101

I am certain Hitler and many "intelligent" dictators and those who committed genocides and other evil acts were acting very logically BUT NOT empathically nor compassionately.
Ted Bundy who was a serial killer who killed many was a highly intelligent person who relied on logic to lure the women he killed.

Where is the omnibenevolence, omni-empathy and omi-compassion in your GOD. In the weakness of these qualities your God is omni-psychopathic.

The point is God has agency and thus a God with omnipotence should deal with the Problem of Evil [eternal bound] as conditioned by omnibenevolence, omni-empathy and omi-compassion to ensure his created humans do not suffer since humans first emerged.

You are the amoeba who is ignorant of why you are desperately clinging to a God for consonance sake to soothe the inherent cognitive dissonances driven by an existential crisis.
In clinging to such an illusory God you are indirectly complicit to all the evil acts committed by theists, especially from evil prone Islamists.
There are alternative secular strategies to deal with the inherent cognitive dissonance [that generate terrible pains "& sufferings] and this will avoid theistic-related evil.

The secular will have their secular evil acts and these will be dealt with via morality-proper.
What is Morality?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29737

Acknowledging life is filled with sufferings [dukkha] and modulating sufferings will enable happiness to unfold.

• The four noble truths (4NT) can be summarized as follows:
  1.The truth of dukkha (suffering, anxiety, stress)
  2.The truth of the origin of dukkha
  3.The truth of the cessation of dukkha
  4.The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha -8FP*

The truth is the clinging to an illusory God is a quickie balm to soothe the inherent existential sufferings.
The irony is this quickie solution is a double-sided blade which generate other terrible sufferings [wars, genocides, rapes, violence, infringement of human rights, etc.] to the extreme of the extermination of the human species.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:46 pm
I eat all sorts of foods with respect.

So, as long as you are doing 'evil' things, with 'respect', then this is all right, correct?

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:46 pm I thanks all sort of food for dying for me.

So, you CAUSE the animal to be KILLED, and then you thank that animal for your 'evil' doing?

Sounds rather CONTRADICTORY and very HYPOCRITICAL, well to me anyway.

WHY do you just NOT do the Wrong in the first place?

seeds wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 2:33 am So, stop blaming God for their suffering when, in truth, you are to blame.
_______

Your above is pointless.
The point is the 'problem of evil' that God cannot resolves justify that God cannot exists as real.

As such whatever human sufferings there are they are the responsibility of humans themselves, thus they have the onus to deal with sufferings individually and as a group or humanity.

This is why the non-theistic Buddhists came up with
Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25193

Acknowledging life is filled with sufferings [dukkha] and modulating sufferings will enable happiness to unfold.

• The four noble truths (4NT) can be summarized as follows:
  1.The truth of dukkha (suffering, anxiety, stress)
  2.The truth of the origin of dukkha
  3.The truth of the cessation of dukkha
  4.The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha -8FP*

The truth is the clinging to an illusory God is a quickie balm to soothe the inherent existential sufferings.
The irony is this quickie solution is a double-sided blade which generate other terrible sufferings [wars, genocides, rapes, violence, infringement of human rights, etc.] to the extreme of the extermination of the human species.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:46 pmTo me, evil is as fundamental as good. It is necessary sometimes. Sometimes you cannot avoid it.

Like for example WHEN?

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:46 pmI eat all sorts of foods with respect.

So, as long as you are doing 'evil' things, with 'respect', then this is all right, correct?

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:46 pm I thanks all sort of food for dying for me.

So, you CAUSE the animal to be KILLED, and then you thank that animal for your 'evil' doing?

Sounds rather CONTRADICTORY and very HYPOCRITICAL, well to me anyway.

WHY do you just NOT do the Wrong in the first place?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 5:30 am

seeds wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 2:33 am So, stop blaming God for their suffering when, in truth, you are to blame.
_______

Your above is pointless.
The point is the 'problem of evil' that God cannot resolves justify that God cannot exists as real.

But God can and IS resolving it. This is part of THE PLAN.

The Fact that you just WANT to continue doing 'evil' things now is another matter and besides the point.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 5:30 am As such whatever human sufferings there are they are the responsibility of humans themselves, thus they have the onus to deal with sufferings individually and as a group or humanity.

This is why the non-theistic Buddhists came up with
Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25193

Acknowledging life is filled with sufferings [dukkha] and modulating sufferings will enable happiness to unfold.

• The four noble truths (4NT) can be summarized as follows:
  1.The truth of dukkha (suffering, anxiety, stress)
  2.The truth of the origin of dukkha
  3.The truth of the cessation of dukkha
  4.The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha -8FP*

The truth is the clinging to an illusory God is a quickie balm to soothe the inherent existential sufferings.
The irony is this quickie solution is a double-sided blade which generate other terrible sufferings [wars, genocides, rapes, violence, infringement of human rights, etc.] to the extreme of the extermination of the human species.