Philosophy Now Forum

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:15 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:22 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:10 am
I stated I do not agree with your rhetorical use of the 'robot' metaphor for this specific argument.

There is no way you can eel your way with this Problem of Evil which is a contradiction to the existence of your supposed omnipotent God with omnibenevolent qualities.

FFs:- THIS IS YOUR LATEST PROJECTION ON IT:- viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31788

Free will - or PROGRAMMITACLY CONTROLLED - ERGO ROBOT.

DEAL WITH IT THERE U STUPID KUNT (sorry RL)

or

STOP THREAD SPAMMING.

This is what I meant by that the idea of God is a very effective consonance to deal with the inherent existential dissonance.

Look! all I did was to provide logical and rational argument and for that you seem to be very offended and got riled up and throwing vitriols.

Why you are so worked up is because your theistic consonance [security blanket] is being threatened at the unconscious level. Some theists will also killed those who trigger and shake that theistic consonance.

Wake up! this is only a discussion with words, why poison yourself [excreting cortisols] with throwing vitriols.
You should provide counters why my premises are wrong or not valid.

I don't think U under_stand. Your belief versus my gnosis is no challenge and is not the problem. The problem (that is making me a tad angry) is that U keep going on that God is OMNI-woteva - and I KEEP asking...where R U getting this notion from - it certainly is NOT in the buy_bull.

So, not sure how many threads U R going to spam B4 you actually provide the source of this ridiculous premise of your 'argument' - but PLEASE, PLEASE, I implore U --- oh mighty one of supreme psychological standing - FRONT UP OR SHUT UP - CITE YOUR SOURCES.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:21 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:15 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:22 am

FFs:- THIS IS YOUR LATEST PROJECTION ON IT:- viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31788

Free will - or PROGRAMMITACLY CONTROLLED - ERGO ROBOT.

DEAL WITH IT THERE U STUPID KUNT (sorry RL)

or

STOP THREAD SPAMMING.

This is what I meant by that the idea of God is a very effective consonance to deal with the inherent existential dissonance.

Look! all I did was to provide logical and rational argument and for that you seem to be very offended and got riled up and throwing vitriols.

Why you are so worked up is because your theistic consonance [security blanket] is being threatened at the unconscious level. Some theists will also killed those who trigger and shake that theistic consonance.

Wake up! this is only a discussion with words, why poison yourself [excreting cortisols] with throwing vitriols.
You should provide counters why my premises are wrong or not valid.

I don't think U under_stand. Your belief versus my gnosis is no challenge and is not the problem. The problem (that is making me a tad angry) is that U keep going on that God is OMNI-woteva - and I KEEP asking...where R U getting this notion from - it certainly is NOT in the buy_bull.

So, not sure how many threads U R going to spam B4 you actually provide the source of this ridiculous premise of your 'argument' - but PLEASE, PLEASE, I implore U --- oh mighty one of supreme psychological standing - FRONT UP OR SHUT UP - CITE YOUR SOURCES.

I replied earlier,
viewtopic.php?p=490861#p490861

• Sources of what??
  
  If 'ontological' see St. Anselm, Descartes and others.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument
  This is a very common topic within theism.
  
  Allah's Allah-u-Akbar is ontological see the Quran.
  
  Omni-whatever follows from being ontological.
  
  If 'omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent, they are implied from your Bible and Gospels.
  or Just google.

It is none of your business on how many threads I raised, which is relevant for me to zoom into them easily [..I keep a list of them for future reference] rather that hunt for them like needles in a haystack.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:51 am If 'omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent, they are implied from your Bible and Gospels.
or Just google.

Provide statements from the bible that state GOD IS:- omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent.

- or, pathetically as U just did - "inferred" from the bible.

...truly, i am not asking for much.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:59 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:51 am If 'omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent, they are implied from your Bible and Gospels.
or Just google.

Provide statements from the bible that state GOD IS:- omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent.

- or, pathetically as U just did - "inferred" from the bible.

...truly, i am not asking for much.

Don't be lazy, just google and you will get a listing of verses related to God is; omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent.
I won't be so confident in saying so if I had not done the search.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:50 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:59 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:51 am If 'omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent, they are implied from your Bible and Gospels.
or Just google.

Provide statements from the bible that state GOD IS:- omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent.

- or, pathetically as U just did - "inferred" from the bible.

...truly, i am not asking for much.

Don't be lazy, just google and you will get a listing of verses related to God is; omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent.
I won't be so confident in saying so if I had not done the search.

U R calling ME lazy?

While U want to insist that U have an argument based on a premise ...that the bible states God is:- 'omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent.

...u r truly 1 of the most piss weak atheists I have ever wasted my TIME on.

YOU provide the sources within the bible to support your claim....idiot.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:21 pm Freedom implies one is bound, there is no escape from either concept in knowledge, aka in knowing.

no...freedom is self-direction and self-responsibility...that is, bein' free isn't about bein' free of sumthin', but bein' a free will

What is ''free will'' ? but the freedom to choose. What is choice unless there are two options?

The term ''free will'' only has legitimate meaning in the context of being ''FREE FROM something not chosen''..this is the dualistic nature of knowledge Henry...otherwise the word 'freedom' is totally meaningless, it only exists within the dream of separation, in the story of 'me' in relation to 'others' who are not 'me'

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:21 pmNo man in this incarnation is free Henry, no matter how much you want to believe he is.

no..I'm free, you're free...even the poor unfortunate who is leashed is free...if he weren't why would he take such offense at bein' leashed?

no, the slave knows the leash, on his neck, is wrong...he never accepts it...he tolerates it till he be free of it...he's always on the lookout for the chance cast it off

Again the word 'free' means nothing, says nothing, until it is known by association with it's opposite, which is enslavement.

Freedom can only be known because the opposite is known, so in duality, aka in knowledge, one will be known to be free if they are not enslaved and vice versa. A person can only be free FROM something they do not want to be enslaved to. Otherwise the word 'freedom' is meaningless, it doesn't even exist in the natural non-conceptual world outside of human language.. .. that's all I'm pointing to.

So only in the realm of known concepts, aka duality, aka the mental realms of the knowing brain of man,can free will mean anything at all. Whatever, the meaning, it will always be an artificial mental construct, based on belief.
So yes enslavement within the dream of duality, aka known concepts, enslavement can and will be freely tolerated, but only because it is also known that there will eventually come a time when one is free from their enslavement.

Also, we cannot define the word Freedom without the contrast, which is not in opposition or contrary actually, for one cannot exist without the other....so if the law states that no person is no longer allowed to mix within societies workplace until they have had the covid 19 vaccine, then those people who refuse the vaccine... will not just be able to use their FREEWILL and make it possible, no, they will not be allowed to enter the workplace. That's why the word freedom or free will.. is just another tool used by humans to navigate through their everyday lives, in reality there is no such thing as freedom or free will.

The concept freedom and free will can only relate to KNOWLEDGE, which only exists within a dream, the dream of artificial illusory separation. In reality, outside of human language, nothing is free because nothing is bound.

Outside the boundries of human language/knowledge...there is no boundary, or limit. The universe does not have any agenda or goal, meaning or purpose, it just IS

SO man's knowledge that he has free will and freedom is just an illusion for he is not separate from the whole universe.

Man makes the illusion real when he BELIEVES ... no belief, means no man, no story.

The story of 'me' only comes online in consciousness, which knows all concepts. In deep dreamless sleep, there is no conscious knowledge that one even exists, knowledge therefore, only points to the illusion of 'my consciousness' for when the knowledge of 'me' collapses so does the consciousness that knows 'me'.


Life is a dream.





That's all I'm saying.

Sorry for the sermon.

DAM,

you up for some light readin'?

If so, look up libertarian agent causation and agent causality

prof. timothy o'conner with indiana university has a few things to say on the subject

prof. tibor machan with auburn university wrote on the subjects too

max stirner had some ideas worth lookin' at

thomas reid of the commonsense realism school also had notions worth lookin' at

all four have work on-line

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:33 am
In the case of the God of Israel, I believe the believers will end up having to claim their God of Israel is not inferior to any other God, i.e. it is an ontological God.
As such, any relation of evil to the God of Israel is a contradiction, thus the God of Israel does not exist as real.

you would be in error there on the God of Israel, examples.

Exo_32:14  And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Deu_30:15  See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Jos_23:15  Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

there's plenty more put that's to show in case you dispute. the God of Israel made all things that are not Himself therefore responsible for it's existence. but evil is relative. this is FYI and not to change the subject.

also depends on the nature or attributes, for example, its easy to see truth is superior to all things. and if one's God is the Truth, then one's God is superior.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:03 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:50 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:59 am

Provide statements from the bible that state GOD IS:- omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent.

- or, pathetically as U just did - "inferred" from the bible.

...truly, i am not asking for much.

Don't be lazy, just google and you will get a listing of verses related to God is; omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent.
I won't be so confident in saying so if I had not done the search.

U R calling ME lazy?

While U want to insist that U have an argument based on a premise ...that the bible states God is:- 'omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent.

...u r truly 1 of the most piss weak atheists I have ever wasted my TIME on.

YOU provide the sources within the bible to support your claim....idiot.

You are the ignorant stupid bastard idiot.

I have been mentioning the term 'omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent' in relation to the Christian God and 99% Christians [in my experience] has
NEVER asked for references from the Bible because it is common knowledge implied in the Bible.
That was why I was surprised and lost when you asked for 'sources'.

If you are up to date, you would not have asked at all.

If you are a rational person, counter my rational argument that your supposed omnipotent God with omnibenevolence but enable humans HE created to commit evil.
Therefore your supposed God is contradictory thus false.

If you understand and realized the above you will be a better man with greater freedom and control over your life instead of being slave to an illusory God.

DPMartin wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:30 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:33 am
In the case of the God of Israel, I believe the believers will end up having to claim their God of Israel is not inferior to any other God, i.e. it is an ontological God.
As such, any relation of evil to the God of Israel is a contradiction, thus the God of Israel does not exist as real.

you would be in error there on the God of Israel, examples.

Exo_32:14  And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Deu_30:15  See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Jos_23:15  Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

there's plenty more put that's to show in case you dispute. the God of Israel made all things that are not Himself therefore responsible for it's existence. but evil is relative. this is FYI and not to change the subject.

also depends on the nature or attributes, for example, its easy to see truth is superior to all things. and if one's God is the Truth, then one's God is superior.

That OT had created evil is not my main point.
It was Gaffo who hinted the OT GOD created evil.
I noted the OT GOD did create evil which implied that is a bad God.
But if such a God had created evil and repented, that is a funny sort and inferior of God.

My main point is
1. most theists will claim [directly or necessarily] their supposed God is omnipotent with omni-benevolence and whatever omni- necessary.
2. But God-created-humans did commit real evil and violence in reality.
3. 1 and 2 is a contradiction.
4. Therefore the supposed God does not exist.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:50 am

DPMartin wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:30 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:33 am
In the case of the God of Israel, I believe the believers will end up having to claim their God of Israel is not inferior to any other God, i.e. it is an ontological God.
As such, any relation of evil to the God of Israel is a contradiction, thus the God of Israel does not exist as real.

you would be in error there on the God of Israel, examples.

Exo_32:14  And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Deu_30:15  See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Jos_23:15  Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

there's plenty more put that's to show in case you dispute. the God of Israel made all things that are not Himself therefore responsible for it's existence. but evil is relative. this is FYI and not to change the subject.

also depends on the nature or attributes, for example, its easy to see truth is superior to all things. and if one's God is the Truth, then one's God is superior.

That OT had created evil is not my main point.
It was Gaffo who hinted the OT GOD created evil.
I noted the OT GOD did create evil which implied that is a bad God.
But if such a God had created evil and repented, that is a funny sort and inferior of God.

My main point is
1. most theists will claim [directly or necessarily] their supposed God is omnipotent with omni-benevolence and whatever omni- necessary.
2. But God-created-humans did commit real evil and violence in reality.
3. 1 and 2 is a contradiction.
4. Therefore the supposed God does not exist.

nope you got it incorrect, what God created is one thing, but what in the creation is good or evil is according to who in your argument?

good and evil is relative to the existence or wellbeing or judgment of a living thing. therefore what is really evil is something that isn't good trying to be the judge of good and evil.

and according to the OT and NT God which are the same by the way:

Gen 1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. 


just so you don't have to take my word for it.

it seems you're making assumptions about a God and the status of man without really reading about it.

DPMartin wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:46 pm nope you got it incorrect, what God created is one thing, but what in the creation is good or evil is according to who in your argument?

Good question, DPM.

These people who claim God "invented evil" never pause to say what gives them the authority to pronounce that something is "good" or "evil." They just assume that the visceral reaction they are having to that phenomenon is identical to the one everybody else must be having, and that the one that everybody is having is justified.

But we don't know that it is. If everybody in the world were identically afraid of the dark, that wouldn't mean that darkness was objectively bad. Or if everybody in the world believed women are inferior in value to men (which most of the world historically has believed and still does believe), would their mere belief in that make it objectively true?

So AV owes you an account of how (s)he knows that "evil" is a thing. And if it's not an objective thing, then the accusation against God does away like mist in the wind.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:33 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:03 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:50 am
Don't be lazy, just google and you will get a listing of verses related to God is; omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent.
I won't be so confident in saying so if I had not done the search.

U R calling ME lazy?

While U want to insist that U have an argument based on a premise ...that the bible states God is:- 'omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent.

...u r truly 1 of the most piss weak atheists I have ever wasted my TIME on.

YOU provide the sources within the bible to support your claim....idiot.

You are the ignorant stupid bastard idiot.

I have been mentioning the term 'omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent' in relation to the Christian God and 99% Christians [in my experience] has
NEVER asked for references from the Bible because it is common knowledge implied in the Bible.
That was why I was surprised and lost when you asked for 'sources'.

..that's be.cause U have been dealing with stupid ***ts that don't belong within the realms of PHILOSOPHY.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:33 amMy main point is
1. most theists will claim [directly or necessarily] their supposed God is omnipotent with omni-benevolence and whatever omni- necessary.
2. But God-created-humans did commit real evil and violence in reality.
3. 1 and 2 is a contradiction.
4. Therefore the supposed God does not exist.

C NOW. I have a problem with point 1. I know that God is not OMNI-benevolent - NOT just from 23 years of direct experience, but more importantly, in total contradiction to your source - (that U refuse to cite) - the bible - God states 'HE' will burn wo/man forever IF they don't (woteva)...

So.

What is "OMNI-benevolent" in God there? ...ergo, your ridiculous assumption at point 4. (is fucked)

DPMartin wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:46 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:50 am

DPMartin wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:30 pm

you would be in error there on the God of Israel, examples.

Exo_32:14  And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Deu_30:15  See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Jos_23:15  Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

there's plenty more put that's to show in case you dispute. the God of Israel made all things that are not Himself therefore responsible for it's existence. but evil is relative. this is FYI and not to change the subject.

also depends on the nature or attributes, for example, its easy to see truth is superior to all things. and if one's God is the Truth, then one's God is superior.

That OT had created evil is not my main point.
It was Gaffo who hinted the OT GOD created evil.
I noted the OT GOD did create evil which implied that is a bad God.
But if such a God had created evil and repented, that is a funny sort and inferior of God.

My main point is
1. most theists will claim [directly or necessarily] their supposed God is omnipotent with omni-benevolence and whatever omni- necessary.
2. But God-created-humans did commit real evil and violence in reality.
3. 1 and 2 is a contradiction.
4. Therefore the supposed God does not exist.

nope you got it incorrect, what God created is one thing, but what in the creation is good or evil is according to who in your argument?

good and evil is relative to the existence or wellbeing or judgment of a living thing. therefore what is really evil is something that isn't good trying to be the judge of good and evil.

and according to the OT and NT God which are the same by the way:

Gen 1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. 


just so you don't have to take my word for it.

it seems you're making assumptions about a God and the status of man without really reading about it.

You don't seem to understand the contention re the Problem of Evil.

• 1. Gen 1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. 
  
  2. In reality, the humans the supposedly God made, committed real evil [contra good]

You have to take an objective stance here, i.e. taking a helicopter view that,

• 1. Theists claimed their supposedly real God created everything good,
  2. But in reality, not everything is good but there are terrible evil and violence.
  3. Therefore the supposed real God claimed by theists cannot be real.

The point is the supposedly God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent,
as such, if the supposedly real God exists as real,
such an all-powerful God logically by his intrinsic nature of good,
would not have created humans who are capable to committing evil to contradict his omnibenevolent nature.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:57 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:33 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:03 am

U R calling ME lazy?

While U want to insist that U have an argument based on a premise ...that the bible states God is:- 'omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent.

...u r truly 1 of the most piss weak atheists I have ever wasted my TIME on.

YOU provide the sources within the bible to support your claim....idiot.

You are the ignorant stupid bastard idiot.

I have been mentioning the term 'omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence, omnibenevolent' in relation to the Christian God and 99% Christians [in my experience] has
NEVER asked for references from the Bible because it is common knowledge implied in the Bible.
That was why I was surprised and lost when you asked for 'sources'.

..that's be.cause U have been dealing with stupid ***ts that don't belong within the realms of PHILOSOPHY.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:33 amMy main point is
1. most theists will claim [directly or necessarily] their supposed God is omnipotent with omni-benevolence and whatever omni- necessary.
2. But God-created-humans did commit real evil and violence in reality.
3. 1 and 2 is a contradiction.
4. Therefore the supposed God does not exist.

C NOW. I have a problem with point 1. I know that God is not OMNI-benevolent - NOT just from 23 years of direct experience, but more importantly, in total contradiction to your source - (that U refuse to cite) - the bible - God states 'HE' will burn wo/man forever IF they don't (woteva)...

So.

What is "OMNI-benevolent" in God there? ...ergo, your ridiculous assumption at point 4. (is fucked)

You are so ignorant and also inefficient.
It took me 10 seconds to get this;

• 100 Bible Verses about Omnibenevolence - OpenBible.info
  https://www.openbible.info/topics/omnibenevolence

There are many other Christian sites which support the above point re their God is omnibenevolent.

If your God is not omnibenevolent, then your God is omni-evil??
or If your God is totally indifferent to benevolence, then such a God is a useless God to theists, i.e. having the possibility of cruelty and evil and be condemned.

• benevolence
  desire to do good to others; goodwill; charitableness:
  to be filled with benevolence toward one's fellow creatures.

There are many who claimed their 'God' is indifferent to benevolence and their God had commanded them to kill and be cruel to humans.
Therefore theists will always claim omnibenevolence for their God to ensure their God is always good and never be associated with evil.