Philosophy Now Forum

My boyfriend voted for Trump. I do not think highly of Trump at all (although I do not wish him ill). We are both good people who generally want the same things. We are planning on switching to independent. Stop dividing people into absurd categories in which you get to claim that you're on the "correct" side, and that ONLY the other side is mean or childish. Seriously, we need to step back and see all of this for what it is, and the role we play in perpetuating it. The leaders want us to think we're on the correct side by following THEM, so they will court us and appeal to us. All of us should pay attention to the imbalances and dishonesty across the entire landscape... and acknowledge them, not excuse them, nor blame someone else. Stop following. Stop supporting. Demand accountability from ALL leaders -- else we show that we're willing to be led by lies and platforms.

Mitch Horowitz: Your book “The American Soul” opens with a scene from the Vietnam era, in which you bring a group of students to meet a man of learning. A student is complaining bitterly about what he sees as the nation’s hypocrisy. At one point, the man of learning turns to him and says, “You don’t know what you have here.” How do you understand that statement, and why do you open the book with it?

Jacob Needleman: This person was a man of wisdom but also a man of the world, a businessman, and a great teacher. I had known him for many years and considered him the one who most helped me to understand the nature of the spiritual path. He never talked much about politics but more about the path or way of the spiritual tradition. I wanted these young students to meet him because of his wisdom about philosophical and spiritual ideas. The subject of the Vietnam War came up, as it always did with my students–this was a time when the country was really in agony and young people were outraged. In my own life, I never was able to put together spirituality and political issues. I considered them two entirely separate worlds, and what I thought of as politics was a world mainly full of illusions. This man had come from Scotland and jokingly referred to himself as “the last American.” He really loved this country. The students with me were speaking vehemently against America, and suddenly he said, in a way that commanded complete attention, “You don’t know what you have here.” He stunned everybody. There was a chilling moment of complete silence. Coming from this man of wisdom and depth of spiritual understanding, his words settled in on us like a great question, a deep spiritual shock that made us think and wonder. That was thirty years ago. The statement just sat in me, like a time bomb, over the years. And then about ten or so years ago, I realized that in trying to make a bridge between spiritual ideas and the issues of our contemporary world – to see what light the great wisdom traditions of the world could throw on current problems – I was facing the burning questions of: What is America? What does it mean? What is it for? Who are we, as Americans? What do we have here? These questions, which had simmered in me all those years, drifted to the surface of my mind and propelled me toward writing this book.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:24 pm Lacewing

My boyfriend voted for Trump. I do not think highly of Trump at all (although I do not wish him ill). We are both good people who generally want the same things. We are planning on switching to independent. Stop dividing people into absurd categories in which you get to claim that you're on the "correct" side, and that ONLY the other side is mean or childish. Seriously, we need to step back and see all of this for what it is, and the role we play in perpetuating it. The leaders want us to think we're on the correct side by following THEM, so they will court us and appeal to us. All of us should pay attention to the imbalances and dishonesty across the entire landscape... and acknowledge them, not excuse them, nor blame someone else. Stop following. Stop supporting. Demand accountability from ALL leaders -- else we show that we're willing to be led by lies and platforms.

You like to argue people. Is Trump A good guy or a bad guy. Why not discuss ideas: what is America and is Trump defending it? The important thing is the meaning of America. From an interview with jacob Needleman on his book "The American soul"

Mitch Horowitz: Your book “The American Soul” opens with a scene from the Vietnam era, in which you bring a group of students to meet a man of learning. A student is complaining bitterly about what he sees as the nation’s hypocrisy. At one point, the man of learning turns to him and says, “You don’t know what you have here.” How do you understand that statement, and why do you open the book with it?

Jacob Needleman: This person was a man of wisdom but also a man of the world, a businessman, and a great teacher. I had known him for many years and considered him the one who most helped me to understand the nature of the spiritual path. He never talked much about politics but more about the path or way of the spiritual tradition. I wanted these young students to meet him because of his wisdom about philosophical and spiritual ideas. The subject of the Vietnam War came up, as it always did with my students–this was a time when the country was really in agony and young people were outraged. In my own life, I never was able to put together spirituality and political issues. I considered them two entirely separate worlds, and what I thought of as politics was a world mainly full of illusions. This man had come from Scotland and jokingly referred to himself as “the last American.” He really loved this country. The students with me were speaking vehemently against America, and suddenly he said, in a way that commanded complete attention, “You don’t know what you have here.” He stunned everybody. There was a chilling moment of complete silence. Coming from this man of wisdom and depth of spiritual understanding, his words settled in on us like a great question, a deep spiritual shock that made us think and wonder. That was thirty years ago. The statement just sat in me, like a time bomb, over the years. And then about ten or so years ago, I realized that in trying to make a bridge between spiritual ideas and the issues of our contemporary world – to see what light the great wisdom traditions of the world could throw on current problems – I was facing the burning questions of: What is America? What does it mean? What is it for? Who are we, as Americans? What do we have here? These questions, which had simmered in me all those years, drifted to the surface of my mind and propelled me toward writing this book.

“You don’t know what you have here.” How do you understand that statement, and why do you open the book with it?

This is the real question. Arguing about Trump is superficial. Have you ever thought about "what we have here" rather than complaining about Trump?

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:30 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:24 pm Lacewing

My boyfriend voted for Trump. I do not think highly of Trump at all (although I do not wish him ill). We are both good people who generally want the same things. We are planning on switching to independent. Stop dividing people into absurd categories in which you get to claim that you're on the "correct" side, and that ONLY the other side is mean or childish. Seriously, we need to step back and see all of this for what it is, and the role we play in perpetuating it. The leaders want us to think we're on the correct side by following THEM, so they will court us and appeal to us. All of us should pay attention to the imbalances and dishonesty across the entire landscape... and acknowledge them, not excuse them, nor blame someone else. Stop following. Stop supporting. Demand accountability from ALL leaders -- else we show that we're willing to be led by lies and platforms.

You like to argue people. Is Trump A good guy or a bad guy. Why not discuss ideas: what is America and is Trump defending it? The important thing is the meaning of America. From an interview with jacob Needleman on his book "The American soul"

Mitch Horowitz: Your book “The American Soul” opens with a scene from the Vietnam era, in which you bring a group of students to meet a man of learning. A student is complaining bitterly about what he sees as the nation’s hypocrisy. At one point, the man of learning turns to him and says, “You don’t know what you have here.” How do you understand that statement, and why do you open the book with it?

Jacob Needleman: This person was a man of wisdom but also a man of the world, a businessman, and a great teacher. I had known him for many years and considered him the one who most helped me to understand the nature of the spiritual path. He never talked much about politics but more about the path or way of the spiritual tradition. I wanted these young students to meet him because of his wisdom about philosophical and spiritual ideas. The subject of the Vietnam War came up, as it always did with my students–this was a time when the country was really in agony and young people were outraged. In my own life, I never was able to put together spirituality and political issues. I considered them two entirely separate worlds, and what I thought of as politics was a world mainly full of illusions. This man had come from Scotland and jokingly referred to himself as “the last American.” He really loved this country. The students with me were speaking vehemently against America, and suddenly he said, in a way that commanded complete attention, “You don’t know what you have here.” He stunned everybody. There was a chilling moment of complete silence. Coming from this man of wisdom and depth of spiritual understanding, his words settled in on us like a great question, a deep spiritual shock that made us think and wonder. That was thirty years ago. The statement just sat in me, like a time bomb, over the years. And then about ten or so years ago, I realized that in trying to make a bridge between spiritual ideas and the issues of our contemporary world – to see what light the great wisdom traditions of the world could throw on current problems – I was facing the burning questions of: What is America? What does it mean? What is it for? Who are we, as Americans? What do we have here? These questions, which had simmered in me all those years, drifted to the surface of my mind and propelled me toward writing this book.

“You don’t know what you have here.” How do you understand that statement, and why do you open the book with it?

This is the real question. Arguing about Trump is superficial. Have you ever thought about "what we have here" rather than complaining about Trump?

I argue about Trump because my complaint is Trump, not the ideals of the Republican Party.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:34 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:30 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:24 pm This is the real question. Arguing about Trump is superficial. Have you ever thought about "what we have here" rather than complaining about Trump?

I argue about Trump because my complaint is Trump, not the ideals of the Republican Party.

So what is America for?

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:35 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:34 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:30 pm

I argue about Trump because my complaint is Trump, not the ideals of the Republican Party.

So what is America for?

For complaining about Trump among other things.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:24 pm You like to argue people. Is Trump A good guy or a bad guy. Why not discuss ideas: what is America and is Trump defending it?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:30 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:35 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:34 pm

So what is America for?

For complaining about Trump among other things.

Very true. That is why sustaining liberty is impossible leading to inevitable political slavery.

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:53 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:30 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:35 pm

For complaining about Trump among other things.

Very true. That is why sustaining liberty is impossible leading to inevitable political slavery.

You say that liberty leads to slavery? That’s odd.

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:53 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:30 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:35 pm

For complaining about Trump among other things.

Very true. That is why sustaining liberty is impossible leading to inevitable political slavery.

You say that liberty leads to slavery? That’s odd.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:42 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:24 pm You like to argue people. Is Trump A good guy or a bad guy. Why not discuss ideas: what is America and is Trump defending it?

Hey Nick... we all have things we notice... and you don't need to tell me what to discuss. I notice that Trump is a mentally-challenged liar. I think that is important to recognize and discuss since he is the President of a country.

America is ALL OF US... many perspectives... many agendas. No, Trump does not defend that. He divides that. He is for himself -- he wants to rule without being accountable or challenged -- and he does not represent America.

"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help." - President Reagan Aug. 12, 1986 ...

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:41 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:53 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:30 am

Very true. That is why sustaining liberty is impossible leading to inevitable political slavery.

You say that liberty leads to slavery? That’s odd.

I wrote that SUSTAINING liberty is impossible. Once liberty is sacrificed, it will be replaced by political slavery and tyranny which takes the place of what we cannot voluntarily do.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:06 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:41 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:53 am

You say that liberty leads to slavery? That’s odd.

I wrote that SUSTAINING liberty is impossible. Once liberty is sacrificed, it will be replaced by political slavery and tyranny which takes the place of what we cannot voluntarily do.

the fat lady ain't sung yet: we may still pull out a win

If philosopher Jacob Needleman is right, America was always meant to be a place where deep reflection and assessment of one’s values, motives, and potential could flourish. In his latest book, The American Soul: Rediscovering the Wisdom of the Founders (Tarcher), Needleman writes that “America was once the hope of the world,” and not just because it symbolized political liberty and freedom from want. “The deeper hope of America was its vision of what humanity is and can become.” He uses the writings and speeches of such icons as Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, and Lincoln to delineate his transformative vision of America.

But Needleman gives equal time in his book to what he calls “the crimes of America” — namely, our early legacy of slavery and the genocide of the Native American people. “To a great extent, the material success of America rests on these crimes and others like them,” he says. But he urges his readers to take stock of America’s virtues and failures in a way that might yield more telling sentiments than pride on the one hand or guilt on the other.

“The great wisdom,” he writes, “whispers to us from ancient times of another kind of confrontation with what is good and what is evil in ourselves; another kind of hope, compared to which that which we call optimism is dangerously naive and childish; and another kind of remorse, compared to which that which we call guilt is impotent and self-deceitful.”

The self-confrontation Needleman suggests is the kind of inner work that eventually yields more than just a new opinion of ourselves. It is the work that slowly but surely yields a new self entirely. Perhaps by such a process America itself might eventually achieve the potential that our Founding Fathers glimpsed. But the process will be tremendously more difficult than simply asking our spouses how we’re doing.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:06 am Can't you see that calling Trump "mentally-challenged liar" is just an unsupported ad hom attack.

The American ideal is freedom from government and the freedom to choose life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I'll stick with Trump and his defense of the qualities necessary to sustain liberty.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:41 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:53 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:30 am

Very true. That is why sustaining liberty is impossible leading to inevitable political slavery.

You say that liberty leads to slavery? That’s odd.

I wrote that SUSTAINING liberty is impossible. Once liberty is sacrificed, it will be replaced by political slavery and tyranny which takes the place of what we cannot voluntarily do.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:06 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:42 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:24 pm You like to argue people. Is Trump A good guy or a bad guy. Why not discuss ideas: what is America and is Trump defending it?

Hey Nick... we all have things we notice... and you don't need to tell me what to discuss. I notice that Trump is a mentally-challenged liar. I think that is important to recognize and discuss since he is the President of a country.

America is ALL OF US... many perspectives... many agendas. No, Trump does not defend that. He divides that. He is for himself -- he wants to rule without being accountable or challenged -- and he does not represent America.

Can't you see that calling Trump "mentally-challenged liar" is just an unsupported ad hom attack

There are certain ideals and principles that must be supported for the sake of liberty. A secure vote and protection against fraud is one example. Trump wants a voter picture ID. The left is against it. Trump wants a secure border. The left is against it. School choice is essential to protect students from governmental indoctrination. The left is against it

The American ideal is freedom from government and the freedom to choose life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The government for the left takes the place of freedom and decides, like it or not, what your happiness is.

"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help." - President Reagan Aug. 12, 1986 ...

I'll stick with Trump and his defense of the qualities necessary to sustain liberty.