An Analogy, From Physical To Mind

[surreptitious57]

There is no rush as things are revealed accordingly

Therefore you can be patient especially when you may have to explain or repeat yourself to someone who requires clarification
For just because you understand something does not mean everyone else will too so you may have to clarify it many more times
I for example am very slow and simple and so I need things explained clearly to me and sometimes more than once as you know

[surreptitious57]

This part of what I set out to do will not be happening here in this forum

That is disappointing because if you are planning on leaving here then I cannot see you write any more
I know that you have said this before and what you do is up to you but it will be sad when you do leave

By the way this does not look like I am being a cold person who does not care about others as you implied before
I do not mind but you are the one always trying so very hard not to make assumptions about anyone on the forum

[Age]

How can logical reasoning take place if one is trying to explain that there is only one Mind when the other is continuing saying there
are many minds and that those minds do not work that way

A conversation is simply an exchange of facts and opinions and ideas . Sometimes there will be agreement and sometimes there
will be disagreement but to me this is not as important as the free and open exchange and the spirit in which that is conducted

Just curious, how exactly can there be logical disagreement to 'facts'?

And so it is not about one proving themselves right or the other wrong but just the natural and organic flow of the conversation

This all depends on the conversation itself. Some conversations are particular intended to be about proving themselves are right and/or the other is wrong. These types of conversations can be clearly seen throughout this forum. From what I have observed some people even change their view on things if another agrees with them just so that they can form another view to try to prove the other is wrong, once more.

But maybe I am seeing more than is really there. We will just have to wait to see what "others" see, and think.

[Age]

To me it comes across as you really do not care what is thought nor how some thing is felt about a situation and that it is
not your responsibility at all and that the other is made aware of this fact . You also come across to me that it is the sole
responsibility of the other to deal with whatever there is

Simply saying that one is not responsible for someone else is I would have thought stating the obvious but state it I had to

From my perspective, adult human being are VERY responsible for someone else, namely; child human beings. I best correct that, It would be a much better "world" IF adult human beings WERE very responsible for child human beings.

I do not see how nor why child human beings have to be responsible for themselves, and are not the responsibility of someone else.

The frail, the weak, the ill, the sick, the aged, et cetera I also see are the responsibility, to some respect, of someone else.

Imagine a "world" where EVERY adult took responsibility for EVERYONE else in a truly loving and caring way, instead of assuming or believing that they are NOT responsible for someone or any one else?

So it is not about caring but understanding that one does not have the right to impose on anyone without their permission

Agreed.

But you told me before some thing about telling "others" what I want them to do. This I perceive as being very imposing onto "others".

Had it ever occurred to you that I am actually respecting you by not imposing on you in any way as you never asked me to

It occurs to me, now, that you are 'respecting' me in your way. But, from my perspective, challenging me as strongly as possible on any and ALL of what is not agreed with in what I say, and, asking me as many clarifying questions as possible in regards to what is not yet fully understood in what I say is 'respecting' me, again, this is from my perspective.

By the way, why would any one want to 'impose' any thing on "another" anyway?

You did not want me to and neither did I but because you just assumed I am a cold person I now have to correct you on this

I NEVER assumed that at all. I said, to me, it comes across as you really do not care.

OBVIOUSLY, to me anyway, I chose those particular words, 'to me' and 'it comes across as' because they specifically mean what they say, which is; only to me, you only appear to be some thing or other. There is certainly NO assumption that you are any thing. There is just a recognition of how you are just 'coming across', 'to me', only. How some one 'comes across' is certainly NO indication of that is how they really are. By just informing you of what 'appears', to me, just lets you KNOW how you are 'coming across to me' and nothing else, and this then gives you an opportunity to either;
correct me and inform me that I am wrong,
inform me that it is true and you will do some thing about it,
inform me that it is true and you will not do any thing about it,
do nothing, or
do some thing else.

Either way I am perfectly fine with any of them.

[Age]

There is no rush as things are revealed accordingly

Therefore you can be patient especially when you may have to explain or repeat yourself to someone who requires clarification

Yes, of course, I hope I have not appeared any thing other than patient.

For just because you understand something does not mean everyone else will too so you may have to clarify it many more times

Yes fully understood, and accepted.

I for example am very slow and simple and so I need things explained clearly to me and sometimes more than once as you know

I now know that you like to be reminded of things so that you remember them better. Sadly, though, I also need to be reminded of what it is that 'you' or "others" want to be reminded of exactly.

Also, I found that if you just ask me to clarify what it is that you do not yet fully understand in what I am saying is the only real way I KNOW what exact things need to be explained clearly, to you.

For example, there is NO use in me explaining clearly how nor why the Universe did not have a beginning and is eternal because you already clearly understand this concept. It is only when I KNOW what "another" does understand and does NOT understand, then I am able to KNOW what needs to be explained clearly and what does not.

I have found that by being asked clarifying questions is the best (quickest, simplest, easiest, and most productive) way for True understanding to be obtained and known.

[surreptitious57]

Just curious how exactly can there be logical disagreement to facts

There will always be some disagreement when human beings do not always agree with each other about what are and are not facts
The facts in question may be true but not accepted as true by everyone or they may be false but not accepted as false by everyone

[surreptitious57]

By the way why would any one want to impose any thing on another anyway

Sometimes human beings will impose on others and for many different reasons
The reasons may be good or bad and that is all that really needs to be said here

[surreptitious57]

from my perspective challenging me as strongly as possible on any and ALL of what is not agreed with in what I say and asking me as many
clarifying questions as possible in regards to what is not yet fully understood in what I say is respecting me again this is from my perspective

Of course but as I have already explained I do not have the mental energy to ask you absolutely every single clarifying question I could think of so
limit it to a select few and then if as a consequence of this there are gaps in my knowledge or understanding then that simply has to be accepted

[Age]

This part of what I set out to do will not be happening here in this forum

That is disappointing because if you are planning on leaving here then I cannot see you write any more
I know that you have said this before and what you do is up to you but it will be sad when you do leave

I have no intention of leaving yet. I have way to much more to learn, on here.

At the rate I am going it could be another 20 years before I have learned enough to even start to consider leaving this forum, I am sorry to inform the majority here of this.

By the way this does not look like I am being a cold person who does not care about others as you implied before

I never meant to imply that you are insensitive to "others" at ll, if this what you mean by 'being a cold person'. On the contrary, out of all the majority of people who mostly communicate here I do not recall you ever looking at and talking about the 'person' in any undermining way.

I was just sharing how some thing could be construed. If some one says how "another" feels, or how they take what I say, is 'their responsibility only, and not mine', then it is a form of 'self-talk', which can allow some one to call some one else any thing at all, or allow some one to do absolutely any thing to some one else, but there is NEVER any responsibility being held by the one who is 'doing'.

For example, an adult could tell a child "you are nothing but worthless and stupid" and when this is combined with the adult's own self-talk of "how they feel from what I say, or how they take from what I say, is not my responsibility at all", then the child takes on ALL of what is said as though it is all of their own fault and responsibility.

The meaning we are using, behind the words we use, and not just the words themselves we use, is also what gets transferred between people, or from person to person.

I am certainly not suggesting that you have nor would even consider going to those lengths I have mentioned and alluded to above. I am just pointing out how it is words and thinking like "how they feel is their sole responsibility, not mine" how 'we' all can to easily end up talking to each other disrespectfully and abusively, and NOT accepting any responsibility at all for our own behaviors, towards "others".

I do not mind but you are the one always trying so very hard not to make assumptions about anyone on the forum

Honestly, to not make any assumptions about 'people', themselves, is very easy. KNOWING exactly who and what 'they' are, and KNOWING exactly how and why 'they' ALL think, say, and do what they ALL do makes it near impossible to make assumptions or judgments about 'them'. But, trying not to make any assumptions at all about other things, is a little bit harder though. It takes a constant Awareness and notice of all of the thoughts coming and going within the body.

Just to make it clear, to me, you, surreptituous57, would be the last person here, in this forum, that I would even suggest has any intentional insensitivity towards "others", let alone doing any thing intentional that would be considered as "being cold" toward "another". There are a multitude of "others" before you, and 'leading the pack', in the issue of 'being insensitive'.

[surreptitious57]

At the rate I am going it could be another 20 years before I have learned enough to even start to consider leaving this forum
I am sorry to inform the majority here of this

This is excellent news from my perspective as the forum needs to keep members who think outside the box like you for example
Not so excellent from your perspective although you can leave any time you want to and meantime there is plenty for you to do

[surreptitious57]

There are a multitude of others before you and leading the pack in the issue of being insensitive

From your perspective there are but I myself find it a very well behaved forum considering it is effectively one without any real moderation
The deleting of posts without any warning and banning of some swear words are but a very small price to pay for this freedom in my opinion

[Age]

Just curious how exactly can there be logical disagreement to facts

There will always be some disagreement when human beings do not always agree with each other about what are and are not facts

I totally agree that, agreeing and/or disagreeing about WHETHER or not some 'thing' is fact or not will happen, but this is one issue.

What my clarifying question was in regards to is the issue about what you actually wrote, which was:
"A conversation is simply an exchange of facts and opinions and ideas . Sometimes there will be agreement and sometimes there
will be disagreement ..."

If 'facts' are being exchanged in conversation, then I do not see how there could be disagreement. If a 'fact' is being shared, then a 'fact' does not just become some thing other than a 'fact' just because some one else now has it and is now looking at it and/or thinking about it.

Either some thing is 'fact', and therefore is not being refuted, or it is not a 'fact'.

Do you see the difference in what I am, trying to, point out. There is great subtlety in the words we use, as well as a very subliminal message behind these words, which can and does get lost or missed far to often.

IF some thing, is being refuted, then it is best left as not a 'fact' at all, but just proposed as what could be a 'fact'.

The reason people use the 'fact' word far more often than is best, is because they have an already held assumption or belief, which they are just trying to confirm, to themselves and/or "others", is actually true, right, and correct.

The facts in question may be true but not accepted as true by everyone or they may be false but not accepted as false by everyone

IF any person can show WHY those 'things', which are yet to be proven as 'facts', are NOT 'facts', then what I found is better, which increases the ability to find out what the actual 'factual' Truth IS and decreases the length of time it takes to learn this, is to just remain OPEN to just maybe those 'things' are actually NOT 'facts' at all, but are just being perceived to be 'facts'.

If 'facts' are 'in question', then this provides a hint to IF 'they' are actually a 'fact' yet or not.

If a 'fact' is not accepted as true (or false) by every one, then the ones saying that "it is not a fact" either have some actual evidence and proof of this, or they just need some time to put in argument form to prove it. (If they need some more time to prove what they are saying, then they are better to not say any thing at all.)

Either way, if they were being given respect, then they would be given all the opportunity possible to prove that that 'thing', which is just, at the moment, being called a "fact" by some people, is not actually a 'fact' at all. If, however, what that person is saying, or is trying to say, to prove that 'it' is not a fact can be proven as being wrong, false, or incorrect, itself, and there is no one else not accepting the so called "fact", as a 'fact', then that is obviously when 'it' becomes an actual and real 'fact'. If EVERY one is accepting 'it' as a 'fact', then why would 'it' be called any thing other than a 'fact'?

But, in saying this, the wiser ones still KNOW not to believe 'it' as being and irrefutable 'fact', forever more, because some one else, at any time, may very easily just come along not accepting it. The wiser ones KNOW not to believe any thing, because if they did, then they would NOT be OPEN to any thing else, or to any one else 'disagreeing' or 'not accepting'. If people who come along disagreeing/not accepting what is being believed, then the believers will obviously NOT fully listen to them, with and from a Truly OPEN perspective. If what is believed to be true or fact, is not accepted by "another", then just looking at history will prove what can happen to those "other" people.

Some times just not accepting what is supposed 'fact', by the majority, can be very detrimental to one's own being. Although the actual 'fact', later discovered, is that that what that person was, trying to, expressing was in 'fact' what is actually True, Right, and Correct. ("If only we listened", some might decree.)

A 'fact' is only a 'fact' if NO one is refuting 'it'. But,the Truly wise still KNOW that it is not a 'fact' because it is irrefutable now, but because they KNOW that it may in 'fact' NOT be a 'fact' forever more. They KNOW that at any time some one might come along with newer or more truer knowledge, which can easily refute 'that'. The wiser ones are always OPEN to any and EVERY thing, which comes along. (Sadly though, what makes True Wise Ones, Truly Wise, has diminished significantly before they even turn TWO years old. What makes 'us' Wise is sadly bred out of 'us' by the unwise before we even get a chance to fully use It.)

To me, there can be NOT actual disagreement to a 'fact' itself. Either it is a 'fact' or not, which ALL agree, or, if some one says that it is not a fact, then I suggest it is better to just remain OPEN and 'hear them out'. For what possible harm could be done from this?

Either they can substantiate and prove what they are saying, which then means they have a 'fact', or they can not, which has no detrimental affect on any thing. But 'we' will NEVER know either way if we never give them a chance to speak.

[Age]

By the way why would any one want to impose any thing on another anyway

Sometimes human beings will impose on others and for many different reasons

I KNOW some time human beings impose thing on "others". I observe this EVERY day and just about ALL day long.

There may be many different reasons. But what is the underlying reason 'you', human beings, impose things on each other?

When that underlying reason is revealed, then 'you' will have the necessary to KNOW-HOW to stop it from every happening again.

Obviously, NO human being wants any thing 'imposed' upon them, so it logically follows that it is obviously the WRONG thing to be doing.

The reasons may be good or bad and that is all that really needs to be said here

To me, there is so much more to be said about this.

Even though this is the very first time I have thought it, to 'impose' any thing on any one is to NOT allow freedom to work successfully.

To force any thing on any one NEVER works successfully.

Is there REALLY a 'good' reason to 'impose' some thing on some one?

Any and EVERY thing is achieved far better (quicker, simpler, and easier) if absolute voluntary enthusiasm is freely allowed to flourish.

If any sort of force is imposed on any one, then there can very easily, simply, and very quickly be resentment, rebellion, and a return back to the old ways. But, if EVERY one is freely allowed to do what they want to do with voluntary enthusiasm, then achievement is reached far quicker and things move forward or progress exponentially.

Also, achieving any thing by, and for, one's Self through absolute freedom and voluntary enthusiasm brings with it a sense of complete achievement and an extremely satisfying accomplishment, which could never be replaced by HAVING TO or by being 'forced' to achieve and do some thing.

[Age]

from my perspective challenging me as strongly as possible on any and ALL of what is not agreed with in what I say and asking me as many
clarifying questions as possible in regards to what is not yet fully understood in what I say is respecting me again this is from my perspective

Of course but as I have already explained I do not have the mental energy to ask you absolutely every single clarifying question I could think of so

Have I ever asked you to?

I have NEVER even suggested that I wanted you to do any such thing. I am just expressing what I like and enjoy. If I recall correctly, it was you who was even suggesting that I should tell "others" that I want them to be OPEN like they were when young.

I am NOT telling any one to do some thing, which is obviously only what they, themselves, have to choose to do. I am just expressing what I like and enjoy, and is respectful to me.

You pointed out what is 'respectful' to you, and I am just doing the same. I am NOT asking you to do any thing that you do not want to do.

Obviously, ONLY IF some one is curious, then they will ask me clarifying questions. I even used the 'possible' word so that it was not seen as though I was asking for any thing more than 'what is possible'.

If you can only ask two clarifying questions a month or non at all, or a thousand or more, then they are ALL perfectly acceptable and understandable by me.

limit it to a select few and then if as a consequence of this there are gaps in my knowledge or understanding then that simply has to be accepted

It is only accepted by 'you'.

As, without your help, I have absolutely NO idea what gaps in your knowledge or understanding exist or not.

If you like gaps in your knowledge and understanding, then that is perfectly okay with me. Most human beings are not at all fazed by having multiple gaps in their knowledge and understanding.

[surreptitious57]

If you like gaps in your knowledge and understanding then that is perfectly okay with me

I will always have gaps in my knowledge and understanding and so it is not a problem for me
My sense of detachment means I have no great desire to know absolutely everything anyway