Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Sun May 07, 2017 1:07 pm**

That is true but all you have to do is provide the evidence so away you go

Posted: **Sun May 07, 2017 1:29 pm**

surreptitious57 wrote:
That is true but all you have to do is provide the evidence so away you go

What do you mean by, "... but all you have to do is provide the evidence ..."? Obviously if a person believes humanistic utopian enlightenment is NEVER going to happen, then they are obviously NOT open at all to any evidence provided.

Maybe you would like to explain how any evidence could be provided to some thing that you say could NEVER happen.

Posted: **Sun May 07, 2017 1:30 pm**

ken wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:Humanistic utopian enlightenment is never going to happen

The only places one finds utopia is in a novel or a dictionary

But a humanistic utopian enlightenment has already happened.

Utopian enlightenment might be possible one day for some beings but the time it would take to get from the mess we are in now to utopia would mean that whatever made it to that happy situation would not be human any more. How can any beings with human/animal needs be capable of sustained universal contentment?

Posted: **Sun May 07, 2017 1:52 pm**

Greta wrote:
ken wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:Humanistic utopian enlightenment is never going to happen

The only places one finds utopia is in a novel or a dictionary

But a humanistic utopian enlightenment has already happened.
Utopian enlightenment might be possible one day for some beings but the time it would take to get from the mess we are in now to utopia would mean that whatever made it to that happy situation would not be human any more. How can any beings with human/animal needs be capable of sustained universal contentment?

I agree with Ken ..it's already happened.

It's a state of mind. It's not human.

Posted: **Sun May 07, 2017 2:26 pm**

Greta wrote:
ken wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:Humanistic utopian enlightenment is never going to happen

The only places one finds utopia is in a novel or a dictionary

But a humanistic utopian enlightenment has already happened.
Utopian enlightenment might be possible one day for some beings but the time it would take to get from the mess we are in now to utopia would mean that whatever made it to that happy situation would not be human any more.

It will only take a generation or two to get from this mess we are in now to utopia because we will be following our natural instincts, instead of being in conflict with those instincts like we are nowadays. It has taken thousands upon thousands of years to create this mess that we are in now because we are going against our natural wishes and desires. But it will only take a relatively few short years to turn things around and head in the direction that we ALL want and hope for. Turning things around, and then just doing what comes naturally for us, that is loving and caring for each other (ourselves) is simple, easy, and an obviously natural thing to do. Then with children only experiencing and seeing this kind (of) behavior, then they will just naturally copy it and follow it on. Teaching their children the same, and then them teaching the same to their children, and so on. The only reason adult human beings are greedy, hateful, and separatist beings now is because they saw and experienced those things when they were children. We all have been taught, and thus learned, to be the way we are now from copying and following on from the previous generation, who learned it from their parents, and so on. Probably back to the days when the evolutionary change took place where human beings replaced a previous species, told in the legendary story about one person wanting more than they needed, and then taking the shiny (desired) "unneeded" fruit from the tree, called the tree of knowledge of right and wrong. Then when questioned about it, from an inner-voice of knowing better, that knowing wrong behavior was blamed on some one and some thing else.

Accepting responsibility for the wrong we KNOW we do, like being greedy, instead of blaming others for it, is the first step to gaining a universal utopian enlightenment.

Greta wrote: How can any beings with human/animal needs be capable of sustained universal contentment?

All other animals, besides the human animal, are content. Only human beings whinge, worry, and whine about what happens around them. All other animals just live with 'what is'.

ALL animals, human included, are capable of sustained universal contentment. Human beings were created from AND are evolving within, from, and are a part of the Universe, Its Self, so ALL human beings are capable of sustained contentment. If human beings just lived with what they need AND have, just like every other animal does, instead of seeking out (and desiring) more, then the human being would be as contented as could possibly be.

However, human beings are different from all other animals and what separates human beings from all other animals is human being's ability to learn, understand, and reason - absolutely anything. This ability combined with their desire to want more than they need, which is what greed is, (and what no other animal has nor does), unfortunately has allowed human beings to learn how to obtain and take as much as they can, which by the way is from the very thing that supports them, that is the earth with its fresh, clean air and water, or as some might say is the Garden of Eden, which we once lived on and in. Anyway, what is truly unfortunate is human beings ability to then now reason out, or try to "justify", their totally wrong and bad behaviors as being what is right and good. Some people even "try to justify" that greed, capitalism, or taking as much as one possible can to obtain as much they can is perfectly all right behavior. If a behavior is not right by ALL, then it is not an all right behavior.

Human beings can learn absolutely anything, which unfortunately is also causing our very own downfall now. However, we can learn how to create and live in a truly happy, peaceful and pollution-free life in harmony with ALL, just as easily as we have so far learned how to create this truly sad, miserable, angry, hateful, and pollution-full life that we are creating and living in now.

When human beings are content with what they have and need, instead of always wanting more, then that is when they are living a truly sustained universal contented life. Dreaming of and creating more will still come naturally. It is just if we are content with what we have now, then we will not be desiring and creating the things that do damage to our environment and ultimately also ourselves.

If you are not grateful (content) with what you have now, then what makes you think you will be happy with more?

Posted: **Sun May 07, 2017 2:42 pm**

ken wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
That is true but all you have to do is provide the evidence so away you go
What do you mean by .. but all you have to do is provide the evidence .. Obviously if a person believes humanistic
utopian enlightenment is NEVER going to happen then they are obviously NOT open at all to any evidence provided

Maybe you would like to explain how any evidence could be provided to some thing that you say could NEVER happen

I say it could never happen but if you can provide actual evidence that it will I can accept it and change my mind. However if you do not provide
it then my mind cannot be changed. Even if I refuse in advance to accept it there is nothing to stop you from presenting it anyway. Though when
I say it can never happen I am referencing an opinion here as opposed to a fact. You did say that you have no problem in presenting it. So for the second time I am now asking you to do so. If you cannot present it then either you do have a problem in presenting it or do not actually have any

Posted: **Sun May 07, 2017 3:55 pm**

ken wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
That is true but all you have to do is provide the evidence so away you go

What do you mean by, "... but all you have to do is provide the evidence ..."? Obviously if a person believes humanistic utopian enlightenment is NEVER going to happen, then they are obviously NOT open at all to any evidence provided.

That's a very flimsy excuse for not providing evidence if you have previously claimed that you can.

Open minded people would fork over the evidence, and then if they needed to explain it further they would.
Only a shifty and closed minded person would say they needn't bother because the audience would reject it unfairly.

Posted: **Sun May 07, 2017 5:03 pm**

ken wrote:
It will only take a generation or two to get from this mess we are in now to utopia

Will it only take a generation or two to achieve utopia

because we will be following our natural instincts

Do all human beings have the same natural instincts

It has taken thousands upon thousands of years to create this mess that we are in now

Has it taken thousands and thousands of years to create this mess

because we are going against our natural wishes and desires

Do all human beings go against their natural wishes and desires

Are the natural wishes and desires of all human beings the same

The only reason adult human beings are greedy hateful and separatist beings now

Is there only one reason for all these things

is because they saw and experienced those things when they were children

Did all human beings see and experience these things as children

But it will only take a relatively few short years to turn things around

Will it only take a relatively few short years

and head in the direction that we ALL want and hope for

Do all human beings want and hope for the same things

Turning things around

Can things be turned around

and then just doing what comes naturally for us that is loving and caring for each other

Does it come naturally for all human beings to love and care for each other

( ourselves ) is simple easy and an obviously natural thing to do

Is it a simple and easy and natural thing to do

Then with children only experiencing and seeing this kind ( of ) behaviour

Is it possible for children to only experience and see this kind of behaviour

then they will just naturally copy it and follow it on

Will they just naturally copy it and follow it on

Teaching their children the same and then them teaching the same to their children and so on

Will each generation teach their children exactly the same as the previous ones

The only reason adult human beings are greedy hateful and separatist beings

Is there only one reason why human beings are these things

now is because they saw and experienced those things when they were children

Did all human beings see and experience these things as children

Did no human beings see and experience anything else as children

We all have been taught and thus learned to be the way we are now

Have we all been taught and learned to be the way we are exactly the same

from copying and following on from the previous generation who learned it from their parents and so on

Do we all copy and follow on from the previous generation exactly the same with no change at all

Probably back to the days when the evolutionary change took place where human beings replaced a previous species

Could not we have inherited characteristics from a previous species

told in the legendary story about one person wanting more than they needed

This so called legendary story is not actually true

and then taking the shiny ( desired ) unneeded fruit from the tree

This is purely metaphorical because it never actually happened

called the tree of knowledge [ of right and wrong ]

Also purely metaphorical because it never actually happened

Then when questioned about it from an inner voice of knowing better

Also purely metaphorical because it never actually happened

that knowing wrong behavior was blamed on some one and some thing else

Also purely metaphorical because it never actually happened

Posted: **Mon May 08, 2017 1:01 am**

ken wrote:It will only take a generation or two to get from this mess we are in now to utopia because we will be following our natural instincts, instead of being in conflict with those instincts like we are nowadays. It has taken thousands upon thousands of years to create this mess that we are in now because we are going against our natural wishes and desires. But it will only take a relatively few short years to turn things around and head in the direction that we ALL want and hope for.

This is how what you say could happen: The tropical zones will be destroyed by storms, floods and drought. Billions of displaced people will try to move north or south. There will be massive conflict and disease. Billions will die, probably most people. The survivors will then do what Europeans did immediately after the Black Death - rebuild better than ever in rapid time, with societies being happier and more functional than they had been ever since the population grew beyond sustainability.

Note that it is humans following their instincts that got us into this mess. The idea of progress is to transcend our animal instincts, not to lionise or pander to them. The romantic notions of the noble savage and of "noble nature" are just myths. We have progressed beyond that, hence we don't sacrifice virgins to improve the weather and so forth. If we never escaped the dangers and problems of nature we would never have progressed. This instant exchange between minds from across the world could not happen. High infant mortality. Short lifespans, Parasites. Inadequate shelter, etc.

ken wrote:Turning things around, and then just doing what comes naturally for us, that is loving and caring for each other (ourselves) is simple, easy, and an obviously natural thing to do.

Alas, there's another thing that comes naturally to us: competition. Get enough people together, competing for resources and you have tragedies of the commons. That's what we have today.

Also, why would you think greed is not natural? It surely is, and it is driven by insecurity. The idea behind greed is to accumulate as much stuff as possible because nature is capricious and tomorrow the opportunities may have dried up. It's basically FOMO.

ken wrote:
Greta wrote: How can any beings with human/animal needs be capable of sustained universal contentment?
All other animals, besides the human animal, are content. Only human beings whinge, worry, and whine about what happens around them. All other animals just live with 'what is'.

No no no no no, Kenneth! This is patently untrue and is the result of our inability to read the body language of other species. They just appear to be more sanguine to us than they are. There's the same problem with autism, with an excellent example of how the behaviour of non lingual people (or animals) can be completely misunderstood and underestimated (a lovely tale too) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kTbavfLg3Q .

Animals worry enormously. If I tell the dogs I am going out their expressions are clear. I have watched so many nature documentaries where animals are frightened and desperate. The wild is truly terrible, which is why we humans wisely left it behind.

ken wrote:Anyway, what is truly unfortunate is human beings ability to then now reason out, or try to "justify", their totally wrong and bad behaviors as being what is right and good. Some people even "try to justify" that greed, capitalism, or taking as much as one possible can to obtain as much they can is perfectly all right behavior. If a behavior is not right by ALL, then it is not an all right behavior.

Rich people in days of yore did not bother reasoning, they just had inconvenient people killed. Now there are systems and expectations in democracies preventing those atrocities. So now, instead of killing us, they deceive and manipulate us. Deceit and manipulation are an ape's stock and trade, both within the group and in tricking prey. That's the beauty of being a smart animal - they can outsmart others to their advantage.

What you describe is all very natural behaviour.

ken wrote:If you are not grateful (content) with what you have now, then what makes you think you will be happy with more?

I agree fully.

As you claimed earlier, many believe there is an upcoming "awakening". I suggest that this "awakening" is not the first and it will occur, as always, after Armageddon, and as a result of Armageddon. There will be no awakening beforehand, although perhaps same groundwork being laid by those who are concerned about what's happening in the world. rather than preventing it. By the same token, Europe could have prevented the disaster of the great plague had they practised better sanitation and hygiene - but they didn't, and most died, and the remainder learned the lesson and thrived without without the pressures of overcrowding.

Still, while we all talk about the problems of life, how much different might our lives seem to us if we did not access the news? We might be bothered by more intense heatwaves, longer dry spells and more intense wet spells, by extra traffic, pollution, accommodation costs and access, and so forth but we would largely not be assailed by daily reports of terrorists, Trump, climate change, North Korea, China, Russia, refugees, rapes, murders, violence, home invasions, long term economic worries, car smashes, corrupt policies, fighting, arguments, dishonest polemic, cheating, lying and so forth - aside from the unlucky, this is what the new introduces us to daily.

Life would seem much simpler and happier without the news and its routinely negative focus and manipulations. Maybe a quick scan to make sure you don't miss the tiny portion of it that may be relevant, but it is compelling, like looking at a car crash.

Posted: **Mon May 08, 2017 1:53 pm**

surreptitious57 wrote:
ken wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
That is true but all you have to do is provide the evidence so away you go
What do you mean by .. but all you have to do is provide the evidence .. Obviously if a person believes humanistic
utopian enlightenment is NEVER going to happen then they are obviously NOT open at all to any evidence provided

Maybe you would like to explain how any evidence could be provided to some thing that you say could NEVER happen
I say it could never happen but if you can provide actual evidence that it will I can accept it and change my mind. However if you do not provide it then my mind cannot be changed.

First off, there is no 'my' mind. No person, nor no one, has nor owns a mind. There is only one Mind, which is completely and truly open to ALL things. The Mind can NOT be changed. The Mind is also ALL knowing.

Second, you say, "It" could never happen, whilst I say "it" has already happened. You want Me to provide evidence for what I say, I could also ask you to provide evidence for what you say. But I know there is no use in asking you to do that because of the disruptive nature of discourse that would ensure when two completely opposing views are held prior. I also know you can not provide evidence for what may or may not take place in the future, anyway.

Furthermore to this, before I can begin and provide evidence, for what I say has already happened, I have to be absolutely clear about what "it" is exactly, that you want Me to provide evidence for. So that any evidence I provide does not look in any way to be favoring My position at all, it would be better if you decide on all the meanings, definitions, et cetera for all the words, terms, and phrases that will be used here. If I was to use any of My meanings and definitions, then I might get accused of changing things in order to suit my views. But if ALL the meanings, definitions, et cetera were of your own doing, then there could not be any bias towards Me.

surreptitious57 wrote:Even if I refuse in advance to accept it there is nothing to stop you from presenting it anyway.

That is true, there is nothing to stop Me from presenting it, but really what use is there in providing evidence if i know the person demanding evidence is completely refusing it in advance anyway? It seems rather pointless and a waste of time to present some thing, which could well take years to explain, that has already been dismissed beforehand. It would be like providing evidence for or against a God, to people who believe the opposite is the absolute truth. No matter what evidence is provided they will refuse all of it anyway.

The whole issue when providing evidence for or against anything is coming to a total acceptance and agreement on what "it" is that is being argued for or against. By just showing what "it" actually IS, is usually just the evidence needed to prove if "it" exists or not. I will use this thread to show and prove this point. How many people notice this or how far into the future before this is noticed we will have to wait and see.

But anyway I will let you decide and describe what entails 'humanistic utopian enlightenment', then I can and will provide evidence of how I have already obtained "this", that is, if I have already.

So, 'what IS' 'humanistic utopian enlightenment' exactly, which you want Me to provide evidence for?

surreptitious57 wrote:Though when I say it can never happen I am referencing an opinion here as opposed to a fact.

You obviously do not know what will happen in the future, so of course you were only referencing an opinion. It was the way that you proposed it as though it was a fact, which is what brought about the opposition. This is exactly where we are now - in complete opposition. You say, "It can never happen", whereas I say, "It has already happened. When you fully explain what the "it" is, then I will fully provide evidence for what I say.

If you accept and agree that the truth, and the fact, IS that "it" could happen, then you are appearing far more open, which will encourage Me to start providing answers, just like it did with commonsense when openness was shown.

At the moment I am not sure if you really are open at all. Your replies certainly do not show much openness. As I explained to commonsense that I would not like to answer the questions posed by commonsense because I viewed there might have already been an underlying position held and this was influencing how closed commonsense was. I could see that there was an already held view, in how the questions were posed. I also notice this closedness in your posts. Commonsense, however, cleared up any concerns I had by showing that although a position was had commonsense was also able to be fairly open to opposing or different answers. Here however I do not find this openness in your replies. I will now have to also ask you how much actual time and effort are you willing to put into My replies?

Since human beings evolved into existence hitherto, they have more or less looked at, seen, thought, and known things the same way. For Me to turn all this around and show a completely different way of looking at, seeing, thinking, and knowing things, which in turn can create a truly utopian way of life for everyone is not something i feel i am personally capable of doing, just yet.

But do not presume that My inaction not providing evidence already means that I do not have any evidence. I have just not found a way to successfully show it, yet. I have yet to find a way that I can express it so that it does not get misconstrued, misinterpreted, nor misunderstood. The actual "enlightenment" of how to create a utopian world was revealed to me over fours, about 18 years ago now, and I am still no closer to sharing this knowledge with another human being, as I was back then. I have never been a good communicator, in fact i am probably one of the most useless people at getting my point across, and it is a frustrating slow process learning how to be a better communicator. From birth I have always had a sense of not being worthy of being heard and listened to. I still feel very much this way. Overcoming this, with people who already have very strongly held beliefs, at times, seems impossible. People's assumptions are also a very difficult hurdle to overcome. But learn I must. It is after all, all i can do for now.

surreptitious57 wrote:You did say that you have no problem in presenting it. So for the second time I am now asking you to do so.

I never said I would never provide evidence for "it". I just asked you a couple of clarifying question, whilst at the same time pointing something out. Maybe if you responded to my question and informed Me about how I could provide evidence to those who believe evidence is impossible, then that might have help Me somewhat.

surreptitious57 wrote: If you cannot present it then either you do have a problem in presenting it or do not actually have any

As I said previously I do not have a problem presenting "it" as such. I do, however, have a problem in 'How can I be fully heard and fully understood by people who do not have the time nor energy needed to put into clarifying everything I write and say, and especially with those who already believe they already know what is true, right, and/or correct anyway?

You have tried to make it sound like it is a very simple thing to just provide evidence, but as any person knows who has tried to provide and show evidence to a person who believes otherwise, they know that this task is near impossible. Show Me a person who believes God exists, or a person who believes God does not exist, and I will show you what I mean.

Posted: **Mon May 08, 2017 2:17 pm**

FlashDangerpants wrote:
ken wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
That is true but all you have to do is provide the evidence so away you go

What do you mean by, "... but all you have to do is provide the evidence ..."? Obviously if a person believes humanistic utopian enlightenment is NEVER going to happen, then they are obviously NOT open at all to any evidence provided.
That's a very flimsy excuse for not providing evidence if you have previously claimed that you can.

That was NOT an excuse at all. I was just pointing out a fact, while at the same time asking two clarifying questions, BEFORE I began to continue on.

FlashDangerpants wrote:Open minded people would fork over the evidence, and then if they needed to explain it further they would.

Very true, and, what you call "open minded people" will also continue asking Me clarifying questions of the evidence I provide until the evidence that I provide is wrong, inaccurate, or not true and is dismissed with valid and sound arguments or the evidence I provide is agreed with. Now let us see who is truly open. I know I will stay and continue on for as long as it takes explaining absolutely everything that needs to be further explained. Let us see how many others will stay on and for how long for?

FlashDangerpants wrote:Only a shifty and closed minded person would say they needn't bother because the audience would reject it unfairly.

Well that is not something that I have ever said, implied, nor alluded to. But what I will say here is I will show you just how many people do not even bother to clarify with Me what I write. The ones who do not bother asking for clarity are allowing their already held beliefs and assumptions to instantly reject and dismiss, or agree with, what I have to say. Or, they just could not be bothered. Their distorted thinking also makes them just walk away instead of making them challenge and question Me. Only the ones who are somewhat open stay and argue. These are the ones who are true philosophers and who truly want to learn, and become wiser.

Posted: **Mon May 08, 2017 3:45 pm**

ken wrote:
It will only take a generation or two to get from this mess we are in now to utopia

Will it only take a generation or two to achieve utopia

because we will be following our natural instincts

Do all human beings have the same natural instincts

It has taken thousands upon thousands of years to create this mess that we are in now

Has it taken thousands and thousands of years to create this mess

because we are going against our natural wishes and desires

Do all human beings go against their natural wishes and desires

Are the natural wishes and desires of all human beings the same

The only reason adult human beings are greedy hateful and separatist beings now

Is there only one reason for all these things

is because they saw and experienced those things when they were children

Did all human beings see and experience these things as children

But it will only take a relatively few short years to turn things around

Will it only take a relatively few short years

and head in the direction that we ALL want and hope for

Do all human beings want and hope for the same things

Turning things around

Can things be turned around

and then just doing what comes naturally for us that is loving and caring for each other

Does it come naturally for all human beings to love and care for each other

( ourselves ) is simple easy and an obviously natural thing to do

Is it a simple and easy and natural thing to do

Then with children only experiencing and seeing this kind ( of ) behaviour

Is it possible for children to only experience and see this kind of behaviour

then they will just naturally copy it and follow it on

Will they just naturally copy it and follow it on

Teaching their children the same and then them teaching the same to their children and so on

The only reason adult human beings are greedy hateful and separatist beings

Is there only one reason why human beings are these things

now is because they saw and experienced those things when they were children

Did all human beings see and experience these things as children

We all have been taught and thus learned to be the way we are now

Have we all been taught and learned to be the way we are exactly the same

from copying and following on from the previous generation who learned it from their parents and so on

Probably back to the days when the evolutionary change took place where human beings replaced a previous species

All of your questions above are answered with a "Yes", except for:

Will each generation teach their children exactly the same as the previous ones

The answer is, "Of course no". If they did we would all be mis/behaving in the exact same way as the first generation, which is exactly what we are doing nowadays. Since after we first became human beings (or from when the story about taking from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong, and thus looking at and seeing right and wrong from a different perspective, we have ever since then been learning and teaching in the exact same way. That is we have been learning and teaching the wrong way.

But after discovering and/or learning how a truly better peaceful world is really possible, which comes about with learning/discovering how the Mind and the brain actually work, then people will be using and teaching from the Mind far more, so there will be a huge paradigm shift and turn around in the way teaching, and thus learning, takes place. We will begin to teach from the right way.

Did no human beings see and experience anything else as children

The answer is, "Of course not". ALL children see and experience, and hear, far more things than what adults think they see, experience, and hear. Also, children see, experience, and hear far more than what adults give them credit for by the way. Of course children see and notice the loving, caring, guiding, and protecting behaviors when, and if, they do experience them, as well as seeing and noticing the greedy, hateful, abusive, and separatist behaviors when they do experience those ones.

Do we all copy and follow on from the previous generation exactly the same with no change at all

The answer is, "Obviously not". If we did not change, then we ALL would be the exact same as the first species. That is if there ever was a "first" species?

Could not we have inherited characteristics from a previous species

My answer would depend on what do you mean by 'characteristics'? What characteristics are you referring to exactly?

The rest of what you wrote are just statements, that you pose as absolute facts, which you appear to somehow have some accurate knowledge of:

told in the legendary story about one person wanting more than they needed

surreptitious57 wrote:This so called legendary story is not actually true

and then taking the shiny ( desired ) unneeded fruit from the tree

This is purely metaphorical because it never actually happened

called the tree of knowledge [ of right and wrong ]

Also purely metaphorical because it never actually happened

Then when questioned about it from an inner voice of knowing better

Also purely metaphorical because it never actually happened

that knowing wrong behavior was blamed on some one and some thing else

Also purely metaphorical because it never actually happened

[/quote]

I am not sure why you did not notice but the reason I wrote "legendary story" is because I see this as only a story and NOT what actually happened also.

Maybe the reason you did not notice this was because you NEVER clarified anything with Me, or maybe it was because you just jumped to conclusions based on your previously held beliefs and assumptions.

Posted: **Tue May 09, 2017 4:10 am**

ken wrote:
I certainly do not have a problem providing evidence. However finding people who are open to it is another matter

You still have failed to provide any preferring instead to move the goal posts by expecting me to explain what I think constitutes evidence
You are right to say that finding people who are open to it is another matter. But unless you do present it you will not know how open any
one is. You made a claim so the onus is on you to support it. This is the third and final time that I shall ask so please provide the evidence

Posted: **Tue May 09, 2017 4:44 am**

ken wrote:
As I said previously I do not have a problem presenting it as such. I do how ever have a problem in How can I be fully heard and fully understood by people who do not have the time nor energy needed to put into clarifying everything I write and say and especially with those who already believe they already know what is true and right and /or correct anyway

You are not responsible for how your words are interpreted. Your responsibility only extends to you providing as clear and concise an explanation for them as possible. Once this criteria has been satisfied your job is done. Anything else is beyond your jurisdiction as you have no say on it. You can think it a problem if so wish but it is a waste of mental energy

Posted: **Tue May 09, 2017 4:58 am**

ken wrote:
Maybe if you responded to my question and informed Me about how I could provide
evidence to those who believe evidence is impossible then that might have help Me

Again what others think should not be your concern here. You simply provide the evidence to the best of your ability
After that how others interpret it is a matter for them. You are just responsible for your thoughts not everyone elses

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