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Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:45 am
by The Inglorious One
uwot wrote:
The Inglorious One wrote:How does "God in the gaps" apply to a God that can only "be discovered in the soul, in the spirit, in the heart, in one's existential and living relationship to Life one's existential and living relationship to Life"?
Because:
I wrote:Science at the moment is nowhere near explaining consciousness, a more neutral term for what some theists equate with soul. So: well done, Gus; you've found a secure little hidey-hole in the impenetrable depths of your own 'soul' and your god is safe there.
Non sequitur.

I suspect you are using 'materialism' in the vernacular. Fair enough; let me qualify: Atheism doesn't imply philosophical materialism.

Evasive: what alternative does it imply?
The Inglorious One wrote:Your post, uwot, is a perfect example for why I have such contempt for the atheistic mindset. It takes a very tiny mind, indeed, to ask: "What is this little voice within you? Where is the creator of the universe?"
Can you support that assertion with an argument?

What makes you think "green" is green?

I have studied the universe in some depth

No, you haven't. The universe does not end where the skin begins.
In one sense we know what the visible universe is made of. Us, the Earth, Moon, Sun and stars are all made of atoms, and by smashing atoms to pieces, we can see that they are made of electrons and quarks. We can measure the properties of fundamental particles to astonishing accuracy: we know the mass, charge, spin (a confusing name) and colour of fundamental particles by looking at how they behave. This used to be done in bubble chambers and while they have been largely superseded by 'wire chambers' the images produced by bubble chambers are useful for understanding what's going on.
Why?

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:07 pm
by Gustav Bjornstrand
Uwot wrote:Science at the moment is nowhere near explaining consciousness, a more neutral term for what some theists equate with soul. So: well done, Gus; you've found a secure little hidey-hole in the impenetrable depths of your own 'soul' and your god is safe there. But why so craven? What is this little voice within you? Where is the creator of the universe?

It is entirely possible to be a first rate scientist and believe that what you are examining is the work of some divine agency. It is also possible to be an atheist and accept that might be true; atheism requires only that you do not believe it. Atheism, Gus, does not imply materialism, except in the dismal minds of people, who, goaded by their little god, swing their handbags at straw men.
(Note: I am not sure that the 'soul' is identical with 'consciousness' nor can they be spoken of as correspondences. That by the way.)

As to 'explanations' I think the Basil Willey approach has some merit, and I say this when I notice the function of explanation in your own approach:
  • Dictionary definitions will not help us much here. 'To explain', we learn, means to 'make clear', to 'render intelligible'. But wherein consists the clarity, the intelligibility? The clarity of an explanation seems to depend upon the degree of satisfaction that it affords. An explanation 'explains' best when it meets some need of our nature, some deep-seated demand for assurance. 'Explanation' may perhaps be roughly defined as a restatement of something—event, theory, doctrine, etc. in terms of the current interests and assumptions. It satisfies, as explanation, because it appeals to that particular set of assumptions, as superseding those of a past age or of a former state of mind. Thus it is necessary, if an explanation is to seem satisfactory, that its terms should seem ultimate, incapable of further analysis. Directly we allow ourselves to ask ' What, after all, does this explanation amount to? ' we have really demanded an explanation of the explanation, that is to say, we have seen that the terms of the first explanation are not ultimate, but can be analysed into other terms—which perhaps for the moment do seem to us to be ultimate. Thus, for example, we may choose to accept a psychological explanation of a metaphysical proposition, or we may prefer a metaphysical explanation of a psychological proposition. All depends upon our presuppositions, which in turn depend upon our training, whereby we have come to regard (or to feel) one set of terms as ultimate, the other not. An explanation commands our assent with immediate authority, when it presupposes the 'reality', the 'truth', of what seems to us most real, most true. One cannot, therefore, define 'explanation' absolutely; one can only say that it is a statement which satisfies the demands of a particular time or place.
I think that I tend to operate in a somewhat neutral territory when I state that my overarching interest is not so much as arriving at 'absolute conclusions' and more because I find it interesting to get to the core of the operative predicates. For example I notice that you have discovered your own comfortable ground and you definitely seem to operate with an 'air of comfort' with your explanation system. And though I think I understand your refusal to accept terms which revolve around and connect with any, even the most speculative, concepts of divinity (it would be quite inconsistent to operate in the arena of necessary denial and then allow a chink in the wall to remain open), and though I concede that at least in intellectual circles the anti-theology of atheism is ascendent, I am inclined to understand the philosophy of atheism as functioning in a deliberately closed mental environment which requires a constant effort of holding a door closed. I am somewhat sure that I say this because of my background in Jungian studies which has an 'explanatory advantage' when dealing on questions of the 'psyche'.

In order to be in and remain in the intellectual space you are comfortable in requires a great deal of denial effort. There are whole realms of human experience about which you'd either have to deny, or not consider at all, or remain mute. And it is there that I essentially focus my critique. You employ a simple reduction which in many circles is entirely adequate for explanatory value: science cannot yet explain consciousness (soul). Yet with that banal declaration - I suggest this here - you have tossed up not an explanation but a defence against the need to confront an explanatory project requiring that you operate your own self, not in an abstract mental realm (insulated), but within and through your own 'soul-psyche'. And this links back to the idea about 'seeing with and not through the eyes'. To see through will require your whole person and an abandonment of the security that seems part of your comfort. This to me points to the insulation-function of your explanatory system and to the use to which we put our predicates. I see these systems as robust on one hand but fragile on the other. And this brings me back to Willey's interesting view of this question, and from a metaphysical perspective not so easy of attainment.

And I would further say that at the level of your general analysis - largely within received notions, received attitudes, and received ideas which bolster your philosophical position - you are not really doing much work or any work at all really, nor connecting to nor advancing the human or 'interior' aspect of being human, and definitely not in a moral sense nor in the realm of 'metánoia', but rather working mechanically in cataloguing and organising your system of view; bolstering it in concert with others who undertake the same project as you. I do not blame you and the issue here, as I see it, is less of blame and more of really doing the intellectual work to arrive at the raw predicates. If we are really going to be talking about 'hidey-holes', and if my explanation-system of my own existential relationship to life is a 'hidey-hole' in fact, that you too would be called upon to see how your system can be seen as operating in a similar sense.

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:20 pm
by uwot
Gustav Bjornstrand wrote:As to 'explanations' I think the Basil Willey approach has some merit, and I say this when I notice the function of explanation in your own approach:
'Explanation' may perhaps be roughly defined as a restatement of something—event, theory, doctrine, etc. in terms of the current interests and assumptions.
That's quite interesting, Gus. It appears to anticipate some of the sociological descriptions of epistemology of, say, Bruno Latour. You might be familiar with his We Have Never Been Modern. You are free to define explanation like that, if you wish.
Gustav Bjornstrand wrote:I think that I tend to operate in a somewhat neutral territory when I state that my overarching interest is not so much as arriving at 'absolute conclusions' and more because I find it interesting to get to the core of the operative predicates.
Gus, if you can find an example of me claiming to have arrived at any 'absolute conclusions', other than those of Parmenides and Descartes: 'There is not nothing' and 'There is thought', I will give you a biscuit.
This is back to what I keep telling you; you have confused coherence for truth and the 'core of the operative predicates' are post hoc.
Gustav Bjornstrand wrote:For example I notice that you have discovered your own comfortable ground and you definitely seem to operate with an 'air of comfort' with your explanation system.
Well, since you have noticed this, perhaps you could cite the particular passages that you have noticed.
Gustav Bjornstrand wrote:And though I think I understand your refusal to accept terms which revolve around and connect with any, even the most speculative, concepts of divinity (it would be quite inconsistent to operate in the arena of necessary denial and then allow a chink in the wall to remain open),
You quoted this:
I wrote:It is entirely possible to be a first rate scientist and believe that what you are examining is the work of some divine agency. It is also possible to be an atheist and accept that might be true; atheism requires only that you do not believe it.
Does that not qualify?
Gustav Bjornstrand wrote:and though I concede that at least in intellectual circles the anti-theology of atheism is ascendent, I am inclined to understand the philosophy of atheism as functioning in a deliberately closed mental environment which requires a constant effort of holding a door closed.
By your own admission, you find your god only by introspection. I have no access to the inner workings of Gustav Bjornstrand; it is not a door that requires holding shut.
Gustav Bjornstrand wrote:I am somewhat sure that I say this because of my background in Jungian studies which has an 'explanatory advantage' when dealing on questions of the 'psyche'.
Gus, you should know I'm not going to be impressed by Carl Jung.
Gustav Bjornstrand wrote:In order to be in and remain in the intellectual space you are comfortable in requires a great deal of denial effort. There are whole realms of human experience about which you'd either have to deny, or not consider at all, or remain mute.
No, Gus. It only requires that I not believe that they should be attributed to the cause you are struggling with.

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:43 pm
by uwot
The Inglorious One wrote:Non sequitur.
With a bit of effort, Inglorious, I'm sure even you can see why that follows.
The Inglorious One wrote:I suspect you are using 'materialism' in the vernacular. Fair enough; let me qualify: Atheism doesn't imply philosophical materialism.

Evasive: what alternative does it imply?
You are implying a false dichotomy. There are a range of possible causes for the phenomena we perceive.
The Inglorious One wrote:What makes you think "green" is green?
Just yesterday you were complaining:
The Inglorious One (Thu Oct 15, 6:53pm) wrote:I don't think I've ever see a cogent argument coming from the atheist camp in PN.
Is the above the sort of thing we should aspire to, Inglorious?
The Inglorious One wrote:I have studied the universe in some depth

No, you haven't. The universe does not end where the skin begins.
Or perhaps that is your idea of a cogent argument.
The Inglorious One wrote:
In one sense we know what the visible universe is made of. Us, the Earth, Moon, Sun and stars are all made of atoms, and by smashing atoms to pieces, we can see that they are made of electrons and quarks. We can measure the properties of fundamental particles to astonishing accuracy: we know the mass, charge, spin (a confusing name) and colour of fundamental particles by looking at how they behave. This used to be done in bubble chambers and while they have been largely superseded by 'wire chambers' the images produced by bubble chambers are useful for understanding what's going on.
Why?
Because they show the specific trajectories of the debris of particle collisions. How, or even if, you interpret them is entirely your business, but something is causing trails.

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:17 pm
by Gustav Bjornstrand
Image
___________________________

Esteemed Uwot, thank you for your kind offer of a biscuit. In return I thought I'd provide a sneak preview of the delicious Christmas Cookies my wife has been baking and which we will attempt to deliver by drone. If you see something streaking toward you in a silver fire do not recoil. We have a personal low-altitude satellite which we have reverse-engineered as a delivery-system. It is entirely rational in concept but (I admit embarrassedly) only seems to work when we pray over it. I ask you also to please excuse the fact that they tend to look like Dismayed Philosophers and that nothing at all was intended to be implied by the pretzels for ears.
You are free to define explanation like that, if you wish.
It is less that I would 'define' it as such and more that I see utility in examining the entire question of Explanation in that light.
Gus, if you can find an example of me claiming to have arrived at any 'absolute conclusions', other than those of Parmenides and Descartes: 'There is not nothing' and 'There is thought', I will give you a biscuit.
(Once again a very polite, if slightly rococo, South American thank you).

You surely must understand that when I argue I am arguing against a group of different voices. I do understand and I have listened to you when you say you just have no evidence for 'divinity' and so you can have no 'absolute conclusion'. However, I am focussed on what I discern as an insulating attitude as I work toward my own definition of trends that I notice operating in our present. Just as you may not desire to be taken in by (what you will likely understand as my) sophistical arguments, neither am I interested in being bamboozled by 'yours'. Again, I am mostly interested in gaining clarity about the 'structure of predicates' and how they determine our perception. But when I say 'perception' I really think I mean 'interpretation'.

I am not sure that the coherence of the sense of my overall experience (of life, spirituality, divinity, etc.) is a post hoc pin-on, like the tail on a pin-up donkey, but rather that my sense of things arises because of my relationship to psyche. It has to do with events of life that impinged on me inexorably. The intellectual-analytical side of things is likely more where the post hoc aspect comes in.
It is entirely possible to be a first rate scientist and believe that what you are examining is the work of some divine agency. It is also possible to be an atheist and accept that might be true; atheism requires only that you do not believe it.
I have said that in many different ways that I choose to function in this plane of existence (I say that because I find it helpful to contrast it with the possibility of other, discreet 'planes of existence', it produces a delightful metaphysical tingling sensation that shoots like electricity out to my extremities ...) like an atheist. That is, as one who can only refer to any rely on what is immediately in one's domain of influence, and about matters which are amenable to conscious activity. But I do tend to see our 'ontological attitude' as a concoction, as a selection, and as a particular extraction from groups of possibilities. I tend to see modern attitude (and I tend to conflate this common attitude with what I sense here on PN as I gain familiarity with, as I say 'your project') as a sort of regimentation of attitude.

I guess I would say that I have felt too much, lived too much and also read too much of different ways of 'operating perspective' to feel that I have to accept what you-all seem to be presenting. Yet despite what you might think I am a very practical person and understand that there are appropriate methods and attitudes for different epistemological domains. Now, I have pretty clearly stated recently that I see the Christian project - if one were to reduce it to the most essential - as one dealing with repentance and transformation. For me, in these conversations, this has been what I have arrived at though perhaps I should already have known this. And in that 'domain' as I call it, I do not think you have anything to say. You have no epistemological relationship with it, that is with a Consciousness that is more and different than your own whose definition you can control, and you likely have no relationship with a presiding spirit that could be said to operate in that domain. Thus, it cannot even appear on your radar.

Once we come to the domain of the Inner Man, at least it appears so, you must go mute. Because the lingo you operate, or which operates you (it is fair to say that our terms and our language drives us, don't you think? Isn't this what 'operative predicates' really means?), has no way to make any but a reductionist interpretation within that area. Am I right? It would be some level of mental aberration, would it not? But this is the domain of activity, influence and interest that has been and still has the most importance for me. More than that, it is the primary area of concern of Occidental ideas. I am interested in *all this* because I am interested in *all that*.

What you seem not to understand, both of me and of Basil Willey, is the allusion to the selective power of the predicates that we choose to handle.
By your own admission, you find your god only by introspection.
You fail to grasp the fuller implication: It is not *me* it is the Occident historically, and it is part of our being, our experience, our art, music, language and so much else. Europe has (in its better moments) engaged in 'introspection' and constructed a world. And a very large part of that has been in that inner domain of the inner man as I have said. Now, the question is: What happens when the conceptual pathway to that Inner Man and Domain is severed? That is my question. What predicates drive that severing away? And what are and what will be the consequences? Bad question? Good question? Please, say something about it.

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:42 pm
by Gustav Bjornstrand
The blurb from Bruno Latour's book that you referred to:
  • "With the rise of science, we moderns believe, the world changed irrevocably, separating us forever from our primitive, premodern ancestors. But if we were to let go of this fond conviction, Bruno Latour asks, what would the world look like? His book, an anthropology of science, shows us how much of modernity is actually a matter of faith. What does it mean to be modern? What difference does the scientific method make? The difference, Latour explains, is in our careful distinctions between nature and society, between human and thing, distinctions that our benighted ancestors, in their world of alchemy, astrology, and phrenology, never made. But alongside this purifying practice that defines modernity, there exists another seemingly contrary one: the construction of systems that mix politics, science, technology, and nature. The ozone debate is such a hybrid, in Latour’s analysis, as are global warming, deforestation, even the idea of black holes. As these hybrids proliferate, the prospect of keeping nature and culture in their separate mental chambers becomes overwhelming—and rather than try, Latour suggests, we should rethink our distinctions, rethink the definition and constitution of modernity itself. His book offers a new explanation of science that finally recognizes the connections between nature and culture—and so, between our culture and others, past and present. Nothing short of a reworking of our mental landscape. We Have Never Been Modern blurs the boundaries among science, the humanities, and the social sciences to enhance understanding on all sides. A summation of the work of one of the most influential and provocative interpreters of science, it aims at saving what is good and valuable in modernity and replacing the rest with a broader, fairer, and finer sense of possibility."
Today is a good time to propose the question - the moon is in Sagittarius - yet give yourself a day or two and then when the intense clarifying energy of the Capricorn moon grips the world, you will please let me know why you referred to this thesis but said nothing about it at all? ;-)

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:02 pm
by The Inglorious One
Uwot, that you would answer the the question 'why? ' with "Because they show the specific trajectories of the debris of particle collisions. How, or even if, you interpret them is entirely your business, but something is causing trails" shows an incredible lack of depth. No wonder you do not understand what is meant by, "The universe does not end where the skin begins"; no wonder you are evasive about possible alternatives to materialism; no wonder you are unable to apprehend anything at all of what I said. It's that utter lack of depth for which I have nothing but contempt.

I said that I do not believe atheists themselves are "essentially bad, " but in your case I'll make an exception. Either that, or you are about a million years behind other human beings in evolutionary terms.

_______________________

It is heretical in today's world to hold one's own opinion as more true than that of another's. Worse still, is to say something that might suggest that one's self is superior to another self. Yet, we all commit these social 'evils' on a daily basis. It's impossible not to. Even the radically liberal and 'tolerant' Lacewing is vicious when her opinions are challenged.

What I find most astonishing is that someone like me, someone who barely got through high school with a 'C' average, can have deeper insight into the nature of Reality than much better educated atheists. These “brilliant idiots,” to use Huston Smith's phrase, very often haven't the insight to understand what is meant by “the universe does not end where the skin begins” or why a description of the way things work is not the why. They are, like Neil deGrasse Tyson and the late Carl Sagan, in awe of the universe 'out there', but totally oblivious to the bigger, infinitely more mysterious, and more wonderful universe within themselves; oblivious even to the experiencing of green.

Is it a dull mind that produces atheism, or is it atheism that produces a dull mind?

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:28 am
by Arising_uk
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Interesting 'promoted content'. :roll:
Promoted Content: How it works

Avatar
dbramhall
September 09, 2015 04:59
You can now make money by including high-quality, relevant sponsored content in the Shareaholic Related Content app. This feature will seamlessly integrate relevant sponsored content from third party advertisers into the Related Content app you already have installed, allowing you to earn revenue from the traffic you drive to those posts.
So basically the OP is spam?

Have you seen the content the pages link to? How crass these religious metaphysicians are, positively mercantile. A chosen belief in 'God' appears to involve money and tits.

It's very rare but I think for once I'm going to report a thread as the OP is obviously spam of a type we haven't seen before.

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:54 am
by vegetariantaxidermy
Arising_uk wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Interesting 'promoted content'. :roll:
Promoted Content: How it works

Avatar
dbramhall
September 09, 2015 04:59
You can now make money by including high-quality, relevant sponsored content in the Shareaholic Related Content app. This feature will seamlessly integrate relevant sponsored content from third party advertisers into the Related Content app you already have installed, allowing you to earn revenue from the traffic you drive to those posts.
So basically the OP is spam?

Have you seen the content the pages link to? How crass these religious metaphysicians are, positively mercantile. A chosen belief in 'God' appears to involve money and tits.

It's very rare but I think for once I'm going to report a thread as the OP is obviously spam of a type we haven't seen before.
:lol:

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:02 am
by uwot
Gus, you surely must understand that when I argue I am arguing for a group of different voices. Take your pick from them, and you have your answers.

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:07 am
by The Inglorious One
Heretics, by G. K. Chesterton, is particularly relevant to thread, though I sincerely doubt atheists here will want to read it because it vividly describes why atheism has negative consequences.
At any innocent tea-table we may easily hear a man say, “Life is not worth living.” We regard it as we regard the statement that it is a fine day; nobody thinks that it can possibly have any serious effect on the man or on the world. And yet if that utterance were really believed, the world would stand on its head. ...Yet we never speculate as to whether the conversational pessimist will strengthen or disorganize society; for we are convinced that theories do not matter.

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:21 am
by uwot
The Inglorious One wrote:Uwot, that you would answer the the question 'why? ' with "Because they show the specific trajectories of the debris of particle collisions. How, or even if, you interpret them is entirely your business, but something is causing trails" shows an incredible lack of depth.
Really, Inglorious? It seemed quite reasonable given that your 'Why?' appeared to be in response to:
Has he forgotten that I wrote: the images produced by bubble chambers are useful for understanding what's going on.
The Inglorious One wrote:No wonder you do not understand what is meant by, "The universe does not end where the skin begins"; no wonder you are evasive about possible alternatives to materialism; no wonder you are unable to apprehend anything at all of what I said. It's that utter lack of depth for which I have nothing but contempt.
If it's depth you're after, you need to frame your questions better to provoke the required response.
The Inglorious One wrote:I said that I do not believe atheists themselves are "essentially bad, " but in your case I'll make an exception. Either that, or you are about a million years behind other human beings in evolutionary terms.
You've heard of evolution! All is not lost.

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:36 am
by The Inglorious One
uwot wrote:
The Inglorious One wrote:Uwot, that you would answer the the question 'why? ' with "Because they show the specific trajectories of the debris of particle collisions. How, or even if, you interpret them is entirely your business, but something is causing trails" shows an incredible lack of depth.
Really, Inglorious? It seemed quite reasonable given that your 'Why?' appeared to be in response to:
Has he forgotten that I wrote: the images produced by bubble chambers are useful for understanding what's going on.
A good example of you not knowing the difference between a description and an explanation.

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:39 am
by The Inglorious One
More to subject matter of this thread:
Suppose that a great commotion arises in the street about something, let us say a lamp-post, which many influential persons desire to pull down. A grey-clad monk, who is the spirit of the Middle Ages, is approached upon the matter, and begins to say, in the arid manner of the Schoolmen, “Let us first of all consider, my brethren, the value of Light. If Light be in itself good—” At this point he is somewhat excusably knocked down. All the people make a rush for the lamp-post, the lamp-post is down in ten minutes, and they go about congratulating each other on their unmediaeval practicality. But as things go on they do not work out so easily. Some people have pulled the lamp-post down because they wanted the electric light; some because they wanted old iron; some because they wanted darkness, because their deeds were evil. Some thought it not enough of a lamp-post, some too much; some acted because they wanted to smash municipal machinery; some because they wanted to smash something. And there is war in the night, no man knowing whom he strikes. So, gradually and inevitably, to-day, to-morrow, or the next day, there comes back the conviction that the monk was right after all, and that all depends on what is the philosophy of Light. Only what we might have discussed under the gas-lamp, we now must discuss in the dark.
Every one of the popular modern phrases and ideals is a dodge in order to shirk the problem of what is good. We are fond of talking about “liberty”; that, as we talk of it, is a dodge to avoid discussing what is good. We are fond of talking about “progress”; that is a dodge to avoid discussing what is good. We are fond of talking about “education”; that is a dodge to avoid discussing what is good. The modern man says, “Let us leave all these arbitrary standards and embrace liberty.” This is, logically rendered, “Let us not decide what is good, but let it be considered good not to decide it.” He says, “Away with your old moral formulae; I am for progress.” This, logically stated, means, “Let us not settle what is good; but let us settle whether we are getting more of it.” He says, “Neither in religion nor morality, my friend, lie the hopes of the race, but in education.” This, clearly expressed, means, “We cannot decide what is good, but let us give it to our children.”

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:53 am
by uwot
The Inglorious One wrote:
uwot wrote:
The Inglorious One wrote:Uwot, that you would answer the the question 'why? ' with "Because they show the specific trajectories of the debris of particle collisions. How, or even if, you interpret them is entirely your business, but something is causing trails" shows an incredible lack of depth.
Really, Inglorious? It seemed quite reasonable given that your 'Why?' appeared to be in response to:
Has he forgotten that I wrote: the images produced by bubble chambers are useful for understanding what's going on.
A good example of you not knowing the difference between a description and an explanation.
Inglorious, do you not think that the bit that says:
'E must be blind cos I wrote:How, or even if, you interpret them is entirely your business, but something is causing trails.
Suggests that I have at least some knowledge of the difference? As I said:
Fuck me, I wrote:If it's depth you're after, you need to frame your questions better to provoke the required response.