Philosophy Now Forum

That seems to make sense to me as the Christians are quietly doing what needs to be done and the others, who are more concerned about looking like Christians, will call attention to whatever show they are putting on.

Absolutely.

If a real Christian ever "makes a noise" it will only ever be in aid of something important for other people -- alleviating poverty, reforming the penal system, saving souls or establishing justice -- something for other people, nothing for himself/herself.

It will never be to preen in front of a camera.

Immanuel Can wrote:

That seems to make sense to me as the Christians are quietly doing what needs to be done and the others, who are more concerned about looking like Christians, will call attention to whatever show they are putting on.

Absolutely.

If a real Christian ever "makes a noise" it will only ever be in aid of something important for other people -- alleviating poverty, reforming the penal system, saving souls or establishing justice -- something for other people, nothing for himself/herself.

It will never be to preen in front of a camera.

And that is at least one of the things my posts have been railing against, thankyou for helping me with that. And this is one of the reasons I post on an internet forum, to post my thoughts, have them torn apart and handed back to me, and then I put them together again correctly, or at least better than before. Sometimes the exchange goes on for awhile, sometimes there is abuse and I just give up, but occasionally the exchange is civil and intelligent, (like this one) and I gain some clarity I didn't have before.

The pleasure of a discussion conducted well and with civility, of a challenging issue worked out, of two persons benefitted by the contact, and of new friends made is a great benefit of talking with wise people.

Thank you for your erudite conversation.

Immanuel Can wrote:

That seems to make sense to me as the Christians are quietly doing what needs to be done and the others, who are more concerned about looking like Christians, will call attention to whatever show they are putting on.

Absolutely.

If a real Christian ever "makes a noise" it will only ever be in aid of something important for other people -- alleviating poverty, reforming the penal system, saving souls or establishing justice -- something for other people, nothing for himself/herself.

It will never be to preen in front of a camera.

The thought occurs to me that, relative to the OP, perhaps there is a majority of Muslims who are quietly "Doing the right thing" while the radicals and terrorists are putting on a show, in order to convince those who don't know better, that they are the real Muslims. I believe that I stated somewhere that I worked many years with a Muslim and we had many conversations about Islam and Christianity, and what he described was nothing like what the terrorists are practicing.

I have very little to say about Islam that Islam is not already saying -- or rather demonstrating graphically by its actions every day.

Immanuel Can wrote:I have very little to say about Islam that Islam is not already saying -- or rather demonstrating graphically by its actions every day.

But is what is being demonstrated every day, what is taught in the Quran or is it a perversion of those teachings? I will be the first to admit that many who claim to be "Christians" are practicing a perversion of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Could the same be said of certain groups claiming to be Muslim?

Yes I know, in logic, "No true Scotsman".

But is what is being demonstrated every day, what is taught in the Quran

Yes. I've read it. It is. And the Haddiths have even worse. The Imams -- well, just listen. Only if we say that neither the writings nor the teachers of Islam are genuinely Islamic could we say that Islam is a religion of peace. And who could say that?

I find that the biggest argument against the idea that Islam is inherently violent is the personal example of the peaceful Western Muslims. But I don't think they're typical. I know quite a few, I work with many, and quite a few -- most, in fact -- I like. However, I don't attribute any of their likeability to Islam, as I see nothing in it that teaches them how to be the decent folks they are. It's rather that they just happen to be decent people -- too decent to act out Islam.

And for that I am immensely grateful.

Immanuel Can wrote:

But is what is being demonstrated every day, what is taught in the Quran

Yes. I've read it. It is. And the Haddiths have even worse. The Imams -- well, just listen. Only if we say that neither the writings nor the teachers of Islam are genuinely Islamic could we say that Islam is a religion of peace. And who could say that?

I find that the biggest argument against the idea that Islam is inherently violent is the personal example of the peaceful Western Muslims. But I don't think they're typical. I know quite a few, I work with many, and quite a few -- most, in fact -- I like. However, I don't attribute any of their likeability to Islam, as I see nothing in it that teaches them how to be the decent folks they are. It's rather that they just happen to be decent people -- too decent to act out Islam.

And for that I am immensely grateful.

I see now that I am going to have to get another copy of the Quran to read, I had a copy that was lost in a house fire along with a lot of other "things".

Immanuel Can wrote:I have very little to say about Islam that Islam is not already saying -- or rather demonstrating graphically by its actions every day.

I am working on a small piece. Care to give a quick revue?

-----------------------------

Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible.

Ridding ourselves of Islam’s extremist jihadists is good. But to allow the Qur’an and other Holy books, --- which create the jihadists, --- to remain unchanged is not good.

The passages that create our problems must be re-interpreted and re-rephrased for modern times. Revisions are quite common to most of the documents at hand. The passages which create the extremist view are the real enemy. Those passages create the mindset that is plaguing our young. In the long term, we are better served to kill what creates the jihadists of the future, and not the future Jihadists, by removing the Jihadist creating parts of their theologies and ideologies. It is a much more humane way to end that destructive type of extremist behavior.

To have real peace, we must do the same to the immoral parts of the Bible.

The Qur’an and the Bible are both creating misogynous and homophobic religions that deny many of us equality. World/Male domination of a few over the many of us is the goal of both of the two largest of the mainstream religions. Those who fly the cross and those who fly the star and crescent. Both groups are idol worshipers and not the God seekers that Jesus wanted for mankind. Shame on both the cross and those who fly the star and crescent.

Justice demands that both the Qur’an and the Bible be revised and thus force the mainstream religions to upgrade, modernize and join us in the present instead of living with ancient Gods. Governments should force the policies of the Gods to become more acceptable to mankind. After all, governments created religions to serve us. Not to dominate us.

Secular Governments, who are answerable to you and me, should rule without religions getting in the way of progress. Social control and manipulation is better in government hands than what religions offer. Ask any woman or gay. Those two oppressed groups want social manipulation of the social manipulators and their poor moral and religious attitudes. To give any ruling power to invisible absentee Gods is foolish.

Should secular governments pick up the pace and shed ourselves of the misogynous Qur’an and Bible. Have those cursed books created enough grief for women and gays? Have we allowed the downgrading of women long enough?

Man is God. God needs and wants a Goddess. Secular men are free and equal. Should our women not also be free and equal?

Should we urge our governments to force changes to the violent misogynistic Qur’an and Bible to make those documents more civilized?

Regards
DL

thedoc wrote:

Immanuel Can wrote:I have very little to say about Islam that Islam is not already saying -- or rather demonstrating graphically by its actions every day.

But is what is being demonstrated every day, what is taught in the Quran or is it a perversion of those teachings? I will be the first to admit that many who claim to be "Christians" are practicing a perversion of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Could the same be said of certain groups claiming to be Muslim?

All the mainstream religions are homophobic and misogynous. None are worthy of modern men and they are certainly not worthy of women.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote: Should secular governments pick up the pace and shed ourselves of the misogynous Qur’an and Bible. Have those cursed books created enough grief for women and gays? Have we allowed the downgrading of women long enough?

Man is God. God needs and wants a Goddess. Secular men are free and equal. Should our women not also be free and equal?
Regards
DL

I have 2 daughters and I have fought for them to be equal and free in society. I'll take my lumps to that end, and I rail at any scripture that tries to put women into a lesser position to men.

I'm not bothering myself about him anymore, thedoc. I gave him a chance to have a reasonable say in a civilized manner, and apparently he just couldn't do it.
So I invite you to feel free not to bother either, unless you find some pleasure in it. He's no concern of mine.

Immanuel Can wrote:I'm not bothering myself about him anymore, thedoc. I gave him a chance to have a reasonable say in a civilized manner, and apparently he just couldn't do it.
So I invite you to feel free not to bother either, unless you find some pleasure in it. He's no concern of mine.

Understood, and if you have nothing to say to him, so be it. I will only answer when I see something that I cannot let pass without comment, as those of his ilk often do. Oh the burden of stating existence as it really is, just kidding, I say things as I see them, slight difference I know.

My sympathies.