Page 8 of 15

Re: Understanding Forum participants

Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:47 pm
by Ginkgo
wleg wrote:Ginkgo,

No, you predicate their existence when you make the statement God, Hamlet and you exist. Statements can predicate the existence of anything.

This is the reason there is a need for a comprehensive definition of existence. By the definition: “The existence of a thing is a construct of its’ attributes”, we can know a thing exist by identifying the attributes that construct the existence of the thing. Thus, if we cannot identify the attributes we cannot know a thing exist.

They all exist the same way; as a construct of their own “unique” attributes. The argument proves why.

Wayne Kelly Leggette Sr.

Ok, lets pull this apart a bit. So you are saying there is no universal definition that can explain the existence of all things. Each type of existence needs to be explained by its unique attributes. Is this correct?

Re: Understanding Forum participants

Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:15 am
by James Markham
I think what wayne is saying is that if a thing exists, then a description of its attributes would coincide with a template of what existence is, and if it's found that it's attributes are lacking of those that define existence, then that thing has it's existence by virtue of being a mental concept only.

Again, these are only my thoughts, and I may have misunderstood, so I'll let wayne respond before I comment further.

Re: Understanding Forum participants

Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:07 am
by wleg
Ginkgo,

“So you are saying there is no universal definition that can explain the existence of all things.”

No, that is not what I’m saying, I’m saying there 'is' a universal definition that can explain the “process” to understand the existence of all things.

“Each type of existence needs to be explained by its unique attributes. Is this correct?”

Yes, the existence of a thing is explained by its’ unique attributes. Thus, this process is the same for all things. Even though the attributes of two different things are different, the "universal definition of existence" applies because the process of identifying which attributes equate to the existence of which things is the same process.

The value of a universal definition of “existence” is that it reveals how “knowledge” is constructed; “Knowledge” is constructed by recognizing the attributes that relate/equate to the existence of a thing. Once we understand this, we can understand what “truth” is and understand the mechanics of “rational thinking”. “Rational thinking” is the process of systematically attempting to recognize which attributes relate/equate to the existence of the thing we are thinking to understand. “Truth” is a propositional statement that identifies a thing (subject) and one or more attributes (predicate) that relate/equate to the existence of the thing (subject).

But, this is just the beginning of understanding the process of rational thinking, once we construct comprehensive definitions of the other twenty-two abstract concepts, we can "think rationally" to understand how 'not' to cause problems that adversely affect the state of our existence. This is when Philosophy benefits all of mankind.

Not clear? I’ll keep trying.

James,

Yes, we can have knowledge of a physical/material thing by recognizing its’ physical attributes and its abstract attributes i.e. tall, long big, red, blue, est.. In other words, we can have knowledge that distinguishes two trees from each other by identifying the attribute “taller” as relating to the existence of one.

The fact we are dealing with the existence of both material things and the existence of invented abstract concepts can be confusing. But, the process of constructing a comprehensive definition of an abstract concept is the same process of identifying its' abstract attributes.

Wayne Kelly Leggette Sr.

Re: Understanding Forum participants

Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:45 pm
by Ginkgo
wleg wrote:Ginkgo,

“So you are saying there is no universal definition that can explain the existence of all things.”

No, that is not what I’m saying, I’m saying there 'is' a universal definition that can explain the “process” to understand the existence of all things.

“Each type of existence needs to be explained by its unique attributes. Is this correct?”

Yes, the existence of a thing is explained by its’ unique attributes. Thus, this process is the same for all things. Even though the attributes of two different things are different, the "universal definition of existence" applies because the process of identifying which attributes equate to the existence of which things is the same process.

The value of a universal definition of “existence” is that it reveals how “knowledge” is constructed; “Knowledge” is constructed by recognizing the attributes that relate/equate to the existence of a thing. Once we understand this, we can understand what “truth” is and understand the mechanics of “rational thinking”. “Rational thinking” is the process of systematically attempting to recognize which attributes relate/equate to the existence of the thing we are thinking to understand. “Truth” is a propositional statement that identifies a thing (subject) and one or more attributes (predicate) that relate/equate to the existence of the thing (subject).

But, this is just the beginning of understanding the process of rational thinking, once we construct comprehensive definitions of the other twenty-two abstract concepts, we can "think rationally" to understand how 'not' to cause problems that adversely affect the state of our existence. This is when Philosophy benefits all of mankind.

Not clear? I’ll keep trying.
I see what you are getting at now.Well, at least I think I do.

Understanding the process of rational thinking is a useful exercise, but in the end I see problems with a "universal process" that is capable of uniting and explaining all the different types of existences. For example, human existence is different to God's existence. Both God and humans might be amenable to the same ontological thinking process, but human existence is different to God's existence so right away out starting points are different. In other words, we must first make an ontological distinction before we begin the rational thinking process.

I think you can have a universal thinking process, but you cannot have the same starting points to implement the process. I also think this might cause a problem. There are a large number of ontological distinctions,some of which postulate the existence of various entities. For example science has at least two understanding of the types of things that can exist. I supplied a wiki quote on scientific realism previously.

Re: Understanding Forum participants

Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:46 pm
by uwot
wleg wrote:Yes, the existence of a thing is explained by its’ unique attributes.
You use existence in a very peculiar way. To my dog like way of thinking, when you list an objects attributes you are describing 'it'; you are not saying anything about it's existence. As Ginkgo pointed out, to claim that existence is an attribute is to engage in rationalism. As far as empiricism goes, it is meaningless to question whether or not the attributes exist. John Locke described two types of attributes in An essay concerning human understanding: Primary and secondary qualities. Primary qualities are objectively true, they are things like shape, solidity, mass, size. Things which anyone who was to examine the object would agree on. Secondary qualities are things like colour, taste and smell, which are subjective and may differ from person to person. As Wayne pointed out though, with regard to colour, it is possible to analyse the wavelength of light. Likewise, one can analyse the chemicals responsible for smell and taste and so on, in such a way that the source of a secondary quality can be objectively agreed on; that is what some scientists do.
If an object actually has any of those qualities, it necessarily exists, there is no separate quality of existence; if there is any attribute that can be agreed on, it exists. If there is a patch of blue, that everyone can see, shows up on cameras and all scientific instruments that measure blueness, the question of whether the patch of blue exists is pointless. Consider this exchange:

"Do you see that patch of blue, that everyone in the world can see and shows up on every camera in the world?"
"Yes, I do. Does it exist?"

An empiricist might be characterised as some who has done enough philosophy to think that is a stupid question.
The dispute between rationalism and empiricism has it's roots in Descartes' 'I think, therefore I am'. Descartes was a rationalist, he argued that, because the senses can be misled, ie: secondary qualities are subjective, you cannot rely on them to give you knowledge. To know something, said Descartes, you need to have 'a clear and distinct idea' of it. Today, we are more likely to talk about things being self evidently true, or easily demonstrable. In the Meno, by Plato, there is a passage in which Socrates demonstrates to a slave boy how a square drawn within a square, joining the mid points of the four sides is half the size of the original. It is demonstrably true: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meno's_slave That is knowledge of a sort, you know it is true, because you can prove it. Euclid proposed five self evident axioms and created the Elements, one of the most influential books of all time, by applying the sort of reasoning used by Socrates. Descartes hoped to emulate that by creating axioms of his own; he thought he had one in 'I think, therefore I am'. However, hard nosed empiricists came along and pointed out that it doesn't follow from experiences of Descartes that Descartes exists, or more generally, experiences of 'you' don't prove that 'you' exist. Just as the sensation of a patch of blue exists, the sensation of you exists, but the sensation of a patch of blue might just be a sensation of a patch of blue, and the sensation of you might just be a sensation of you. Bertrand Russell made the point: "We may all have come into existence five minutes ago, provided with ready-made memories, with holes in our socks and hair that needed cutting." There is no way of telling from the experiences we have that any hypothesis we make about their source is true. This is the point that infuriated Dr Johnson, someone (I'm guessing Boswell) challenged him to refute the idea of Berkeley, that everything is an idea in the mind of god. Apparently, Johnson said: "I refute it thus!" and kicked a stone.
Empiricism is the dominant philosophy of science. Paul Feyerabend was a massively influential philosopher of science in the later 20th century; some people, unfairly in my view, blame him for post-modernism. The point he made about science is that it doesn't matter how you arrive at any given hypothesis, hard work, lucky guess, divine inspiration or any means you care to imagine. Where some post modernists/relativists went wrong is by insisting that all hypotheses are therefore equal. In one respect that is true, because if they make no predictions about how the world works, they are all equally useless; we can tell how the world works by looking at it, we don't need a metaphysical hypothesis. That is empiricism. Scientists usually have some metaphysical belief, as I said, realism is the default setting and Gingko has provided a link that explains it.
People talk a great deal about the scientific method; in a twist of irony, they are engaging in metaphysical speculation: Feyerabend was right, there is no 'scientific method', but again, as Richard Feyman said: "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."

In your Changing Technique thread, Wayne, you say:
The better way to do Philosophy is for philosophers to first understand and then teach the mechanics of rational thinking which will be the most benefit to mankind.
They did. It's called logic.

Re: Understanding Forum participants

Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:29 pm
by wleg
Ginkgo,

We all agree that the subjects of our thinking can be physical things, what there is no universal agreement about; what else can we think about? Well, we can think about gravitational force, that is not a physical thing. Gravitational force is a condition of a physical thing, and there are other conditions that relate to the existence of physical things. Thinking to understand the existence of physical things and their related conditions is scientific thinking. Thus, philosophers are left to think about non physical things (abstract concepts) unrelated to any physical thing, except; the condition/state of our own existence.

How useful can Philosophy be when philosophers waste centuries not knowing what they are supposed to be thinking about? There is nothing a philosopher can think about except the twenty-four abstract concepts and how they relate to the state of human existence. Rational thinking is not just useful, it is imperative to the satisfactory state of human existence. Constructing comprehensive definitions of the 24 concepts reveal the mechanics of rational thinking crucial to the state of our existence. This is the only possible way philosophers can be beneficial to mankind.

Uwot,

I have met better trolls on Bermuda Grass forums.

Wayne Kelly Leggette Sr.

Re: Understanding Forum participants

Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:47 pm
by uwot
wleg wrote:Uwot,

I have met better trolls on Bermuda Grass forums.

Wayne Kelly Leggette Sr.
As an empiricist, I am bound to say: Show me.

Re: Understanding Forum participants

Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:49 am
by Ginkgo
wleg wrote:Ginkgo,

We all agree that the subjects of our thinking can be physical things, what there is no universal agreement about; what else can we think about? Well, we can think about gravitational force, that is not a physical thing. Gravitational force is a condition of a physical thing, and there are other conditions that relate to the existence of physical things. Thinking to understand the existence of physical things and their related conditions is scientific thinking. Thus, philosophers are left to think about non physical things (abstract concepts) unrelated to any physical thing, except; the condition/state of our own existence.

How useful can Philosophy be when philosophers waste centuries not knowing what they are supposed to be thinking about? There is nothing a philosopher can think about except the twenty-four abstract concepts and how they relate to the state of human existence. Rational thinking is not just useful, it is imperative to the satisfactory state of human existence. Constructing comprehensive definitions of the 24 concepts reveal the mechanics of rational thinking crucial to the state of our existence. This is the only possible way philosophers can be beneficial to mankind.
One can appreciate your efforts Wayne, but Kant addressed this problem when he rejected rational thought as a means of analysis that attempts to construct knowledge independently of the empirical world.

This is why he said that traditional metaphysics was doomed to failure. And I think he has a very good argument.

Re: Understanding Forum participants

Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:23 am
by wleg
Ginkgo,
One can appreciate your efforts Wayne, but Kant addressed this problem when he rejected rational thought as a means of analysis that attempts to construct knowledge independently of the empirical world.
That is my argument: knowledge "can not" be constructed independently of the existence of things and conditions. And the argument (a thing is itself....)reveals how the knowledge is constructed of existing things and conditions, "by identifying their attributes".
This is why he said that traditional metaphysics was doomed to failure. And I think he has a very good argument.
Finally, I agree with a philosopher. Too bad Kant didn't think deeper and recognize "how knowledge is constructed" by systematically identifying the attributes that construct the existence of things and conditions.

Wayne Kelly Leggette Sr.

Re: Understanding Forum participants

Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:21 pm
by Ginkgo
wleg wrote:
Finally, I agree with a philosopher. Too bad Kant didn't think deeper and recognize "how knowledge is constructed" by systematically identifying the attributes that construct the existence of things and conditions.

Wayne Kelly Leggette Sr.


Interestingly enough he did.

Re: Understanding Forum participants

Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:49 pm
by SpheresOfBalance
Kelly wrote:My experience from participating on Philosophy Forums over the last sixteen years makes it apparent that people who participate do so for one of two reasons. By far the majority do so with no thought of collaborating with other participates to advance philosophical knowledge, nor do they appear to have any interest and mental ability to do so. These participates identify themselves with Philosophy attempting to appear intelligent to enhance their self-esteem. Having an intelligent dialogue with these participates is impossible for they feel threatened by any idea different from their own. This creates an extremely challenging environment for the very few participates, usually no more that one or two, whose interest is creating new ideas to advance philosophical knowledge.

The advancement of philosophical knowledge demands the creation of new different ideas that can be supported by a logical argument. This is a difficult mental process that can be made easier if on a Philosophy Forum there is collaboration between those with the same interest, but the process is easily disrupted and terminated by those on the forum whose only interest is to discredit any ideas different from their own.
There is nothing unethical/wrong in pointing out areas of reason that seems to be in error, though many may fear it.


Creating original ideas that advance philosophical knowledge depends on participates understanding the mental process of systematic reasoning.

I will stop and wait for replies that reveal which participants have an interest in collaborating and who feel threatened.
Yes, that shall make you correct!
kelly
A matter of self serving perspective. Can anyone really know what another's motives are, simply by reading a few words in a forum. It would be nice to be able to read peoples minds. But it's just not probable. Of course, anythings possible. In all cases, ones conviction does not necessarily indicate the truth of the matter.

It is fun to assert possibility, I'm always game, as long as it proceeds logically.

Re: Understanding Forum participants

Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:05 pm
by wleg
Spheres,

If all voluntary human behavior is preceded by a thought process that precipitants the behavior, it is easy to read a mind by recognizing the nature of the behavior.

The purpose of the thread “Understanding Forum participants” is to identify which participants, by their ‘posts’, have an interest and the mental ability to think in a collaborative way to “advance philosophical knowledge”, and which participants have ‘no’ interest and mental ability to advance philosophical knowledge.

Spheres, the behavior of expressing your ideas makes it easy to read your mind because your ideas demonstrate your process of thinking has no interest and mental ability to advance philosophical knowledge.

Mind reading, based on the ideas a person expresses, is not that difficult when the reader understands the nature of ideas. Ideas illustrate the 'behavior of the thought process' of the person who expresses them.

Wayne Kelly Leggette Sr.

Re: Understanding Forum participants

Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:10 pm
by Felasco
The purpose of the thread “Understanding Forum participants” is to identify which participants, by their ‘posts’, have an interest and the mental ability to think in a collaborative way to “advance philosophical knowledge”, and which participants have ‘no’ interest and mental ability to advance philosophical knowledge.
Yes, this is your theme on the forum, where you display your own inability to reason by continuing to attempt to reach your goals in an environment that will never be able to accommodate them.

Thus, we can reasonably presume you are not qualified to determine who does and doesn't have the mental ability you speak of.

We can further reason that you also do not possess an interest in "advancing philosophical knowledge" or you'd be doing so somewhere where such a thing might be possible.

Sorry dude, it's not personal, but your premise is contradicting itself all over the place, and makes too tempting a target to resist, thus revealing my own lack of reasoning ability, as it seems unlikely you will benefit from these observations, and yet I keep sharing them in spite of the documented evidence which is now piling up in some abundance.

Re: Understanding Forum participants

Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:20 pm
by uwot
wleg wrote:That is my argument: knowledge "can not" be constructed independently of the existence of things and conditions.
Bingo! You're an empiricist. Try this from Einstein:
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
It's very straightforward, Wayne: rationalists want knowledge that is certain in the way that 2+2=4 is certain. Various attempts have been made to build certain knowledge on axioms which are certain, the most famous being Descartes' 'I think, therefore I am.' Empiricists are content with being reasonably certain; they will be familiar with Hume's analysis of the problem of induction and accept that they know nothing about the real world with certainty. In a sense empiricists accept that we are in the same position as Bertrand Russell's chicken. Every morning the farmer comes into the coop and feeds the chicken. After a while, the chicken believes the farmer will always come and feed him. Then one day the farmer comes in and wrings the chickens neck. From what I understand, you are hoping to achieve certain knowledge about 'things and conditions'. Even Large Hadron Colliders don't give certainty.
What Einstein is saying is that there is no certainty about anything in the 'real' world. His General Theory of Relativity can roughly be divided into two parts: the mathematical treatment and the metaphysical model. The mathematical treatment is very accurate, it is used to successfully send probes to other planets in the solar system hundreds of millions of miles away. We are therefore certain that it is very accurate. However, we have no way of knowing if there are events it cannot account for until we discover those events. If that happens, mathematicians will try and produce a treatment that does account for them, but we will still be in the position that we don't know if the maths can account for every possible event. The mathematical treatment of General Relativity, the field equations, are based on the idea that spacetime is a fabric, or substance, that can be warped and twisted; we don't know if that is true, but it doesn't make any difference to the accuracy of the maths. Some scientists dismiss any attempt to explain the phenomena they work with as metaphysics; in this they are following Isaac Newton, who described the action of gravity, but made no attempt to explain it.
To sum up:we know the maths works, up to a point, but beyond a certain scale, we don't know to what.
You said at the beginning of this thread that you have spent 16 years on your project. If you had spent that much time reading what philosophers have actually said, you would be in a very good position to criticise, but there is no evidence that you have ever taken the trouble to engage with ideas you feel qualified to challenge. Do yourself a favour: don't waste another 16 years years telling philosophers they don't know what they are talking about, when you clearly have no idea what they are talking about.
Felasco wrote:Sorry dude, it's not personal, but your premise is contradicting itself all over the place, and makes too tempting a target to resist, thus revealing my own lack of reasoning ability, as it seems unlikely you will benefit from these observations, and yet I keep sharing them in spite of the documented evidence which is now piling up in some abundance.
You and me both, Felasco. There was an aphorism attributed to Einstein (probably falsely) that 'Madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results'.
Don't worry, Wayne; dynamite won't shift your opinion.

Re: Understanding Forum participants

Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:08 pm
by SpheresOfBalance
wleg wrote:Spheres,

If all voluntary human behavior is preceded by a thought process that precipitants the behavior, it is easy to read a mind by recognizing the nature of the behavior.

The purpose of the thread “Understanding Forum participants” is to identify which participants, by their ‘posts’, have an interest and the mental ability to think in a collaborative way to “advance philosophical knowledge”, and which participants have ‘no’ interest and mental ability to advance philosophical knowledge.

Spheres, the behavior of expressing your ideas makes it easy to read your mind because your ideas demonstrate your process of thinking has no interest and mental ability to advance philosophical knowledge.

Mind reading, based on the ideas a person expresses, is not that difficult when the reader understands the nature of ideas. Ideas illustrate the 'behavior of the thought process' of the person who expresses them.

Wayne Kelly Leggette Sr.
Incorrect, you shall characterize anyone that doesn't agree with you, in the same way, as you did me, and that was my original point. You fear anything that is not you! As long as it agrees with you then you claim it worthy of consideration. You that scream of form over function, do so at your own ego's demand. In truth, function, trumps form, every time! At least in any way that makes any real difference.