The Philosophy Discussion Forum

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 4:17 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 4:14 pm

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 4:13 pm
Do you think he is, and if not why?

After all, this is your corner.

No. I don't. Because he seems to be wrecking more damage than good. Your turn.

No. I don't. Because he seems to be wrecking more damage than good. Your turn.


Expand that with substantiation.

He forced a draconian crackdown on undocumented immigrants. He's attacked two countries without provocation. He's dispatched the military against citizen protestors. He's basically validated Putin's invasion of Ukraine by claiming jurisdiction over the Western Hemisphere (validating superpower regionalism). He's antagonized China which is extremely dangerous. He imposed tariffs that are driving up consumer prices for ordinary Americans. And he's turned the tables on most of our allies.

On the plus side, he's brought ceasefires to several regional wars. So that's a good thing.

I will amend my statement:

I don't know if Trump is more or less worthy than Harris would have been, however, he could have brought ceasefires to the wars he did without also doing all the damaging things.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 2:46 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 2:38 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 2:30 pm

Well, I've never encountered anyone who thought people who do great harm should be rewarded with paradise. Mostly the opposite.

Ah, yes...the call for Justice, right after complaints about Hell. That's just what I suggested: the cynics can't make up their minds.

Yes. I want to be punished for doing great harm like starting wars and stuff. But then not be punished with eternal hell for disobeying the speed limit or not going to church. It's so inconsistent.

Well, that's the nature of man: anybody else's sins, like Stalin's or Hitler's, are considered an evil that must be judged; at the same time, my own personal sins, such as lying, theft, covetousness, envy, blasphemy, hatred, sexual excesses, or lust are "speed limit" sins, and must not be judged. That's how men think. They always suppose these things are on a scale; then they put their finger on the scale, to tip it away from the kinds of sins they do all the time.

Unfortunately for such men, God is more merciful (now) and more just (soon) than they would wish.

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 3:08 pm Christians pray for personal strength so that God’s will can be done, with the understood caveat that God’s will is often mysterious to the limited capacity of humans.
Doing great harm preconceives what God want's done.

The reason why you don't hear folks hollering Praise Jesus before harming is because folks don't holler that.

Christian fighter pilots and artillery personnel, etc. will pray that their bombs hit their targets, civilian or military. They preconceive what the best outcome is or that their leaders know. Just as the would be terrorists in Islam say trust that the targets are well chosen by their commanders and imams. The Christians who do this - and it has been fairly common - don't pray - let this reach the civilian target if that's the best outcome, if it is wrong stop the bomb from hitting the target. Their not immune to assuming God is on their side and their leaders are choosing good targets, even if it includes women and children.

Their prayers are generally without hollering, this is true.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 6:11 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 2:46 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 2:38 pm
Ah, yes...the call for Justice, right after complaints about Hell. That's just what I suggested: the cynics can't make up their minds.

Yes. I want to be punished for doing great harm like starting wars and stuff. But then not be punished with eternal hell for disobeying the speed limit or not going to church. It's so inconsistent.

Well, that's the nature of man: anybody else's sins, like Stalin's or Hitler's, are considered an evil that must be judged; at the same time, my own personal sins, such as lying, theft, covetousness, envy, blasphemy, hatred, sexual excesses, or lust are "speed limit" sins, and must not be judged. That's how men think. They always suppose these things are on a scale; then they put their finger on the scale, to tip it away from the kinds of sins they do all the time.

Unfortunately for such men, God is more merciful (now) and more just (soon) than they would wish.

Did he say that he didn't want to be punished at all for speed limit sins?

Or did he say that he didn't want to be punished with eternal hell for speed limit sins?

phyllo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 6:28 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 6:11 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 2:46 pm

Yes. I want to be punished for doing great harm like starting wars and stuff. But then not be punished with eternal hell for disobeying the speed limit or not going to church. It's so inconsistent.

Well, that's the nature of man: anybody else's sins, like Stalin's or Hitler's, are considered an evil that must be judged; at the same time, my own personal sins, such as lying, theft, covetousness, envy, blasphemy, hatred, sexual excesses, or lust are "speed limit" sins, and must not be judged. That's how men think. They always suppose these things are on a scale; then they put their finger on the scale, to tip it away from the kinds of sins they do all the time.

Unfortunately for such men, God is more merciful (now) and more just (soon) than they would wish.

Did he say that he didn't want to be punished at all for speed limit sins?

Or did he say that he didn't want to be punished with eternal hell for speed limit sins?

Well, a speed limit is a human construct. Perhaps the worst of it might be disobedience to a human government. But just how many sins would you think it takes in order for a person to be judged by a truly holy and righteous God? And would we suppose that there are any human beings whose only is has been exceeding the speed limit?

I'm going to assume that you are not so stupid that you don't understand what Gary is getting at. Therefore, you are playing a game.

phyllo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 6:54 pm I'm going to assume that you are not so stupid that you don't understand what Gary is getting at. Therefore, you are playing a game.

You shouldn't assume. The question is real: how many sins should a genuinely righteous and perfect God simply overlook? What's your number?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 6:16 pm

People can mature in their thinking and move away from spiritual materialism.

A child will say gimme gimme gimme. I want I want I want. And conversely a child will say, God didn’t gimme what I want or God didn't make things turn out as I think they should turn out, so God does not exist, or else God is a boogie man.

After maturing in life and experience and thinking, folks learn through Christianity that Christ was right. It’s better to give than to receive.

For instance, rather than hoping to receive the inequity of ad homs, the giving of time, energy and knowledge is obviously IC’s reward.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 6:11 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 2:46 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 2:38 pm
Ah, yes...the call for Justice, right after complaints about Hell. That's just what I suggested: the cynics can't make up their minds.

Yes. I want to be punished for doing great harm like starting wars and stuff. But then not be punished with eternal hell for disobeying the speed limit or not going to church. It's so inconsistent.

Well, that's the nature of man: anybody else's sins, like Stalin's or Hitler's, are considered an evil that must be judged; at the same time, my own personal sins, such as lying, theft, covetousness, envy, blasphemy, hatred, sexual excesses, or lust are "speed limit" sins, and must not be judged. That's how men think. They always suppose these things are on a scale; then they put their finger on the scale, to tip it away from the kinds of sins they do all the time.

Unfortunately for such men, God is more merciful (now) and more just (soon) than they would wish.

Are the sins of Hitler and Stalin not greater than most others? Do you think people should accompany Stalin and Hitler to hell for J-walking or not reading the Bible? Do you think you should go to hell for your sins?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 8:54 pm Are the sins of Hitler and Stalin not greater than most others? Do you think people should accompany Stalin and Hitler to hell for J-walking or not reading the Bible? Do you think you should go to hell for your sins?

Once eternal torture is on the table, even those two deserve mercy killings. Only a sadist or psychopath could continue torturing for all time.
Not disagreeing with your point, just extending it. It's not just ridiculous for lust. Odd to be punished for desire. Not surprising, just odd. Acting out lust could be problematic, but just feeling it?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 8:54 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 6:11 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Mar 08, 2026 2:46 pm

Yes. I want to be punished for doing great harm like starting wars and stuff. But then not be punished with eternal hell for disobeying the speed limit or not going to church. It's so inconsistent.

Well, that's the nature of man: anybody else's sins, like Stalin's or Hitler's, are considered an evil that must be judged; at the same time, my own personal sins, such as lying, theft, covetousness, envy, blasphemy, hatred, sexual excesses, or lust are "speed limit" sins, and must not be judged. That's how men think. They always suppose these things are on a scale; then they put their finger on the scale, to tip it away from the kinds of sins they do all the time.

Unfortunately for such men, God is more merciful (now) and more just (soon) than they would wish.

Are the sins of Hitler and Stalin not greater than most others?

Oh, of course. And the Bible is explicit that there are greater and lesser condemnations. It's not all the same thing, you know.

But do you think that a truly righteous and holy God can deal with just those massive sins we like to recognize as such, and and leave lesser ones, the ones you and I have committed, alone? Or would a truly just God have to deal with ALL sins?

It's a serious question. But nobody will answer it, because everybody knows the answer already.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:01 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 8:54 pm Are the sins of Hitler and Stalin not greater than most others? Do you think people should accompany Stalin and Hitler to hell for J-walking or not reading the Bible? Do you think you should go to hell for your sins?

Once eternal torture is on the table, even those two deserve mercy killings.

Well, it's an odd kind of "torture" that people choose. And they do. They choose all the time to dismiss the Source of all goodness, happiness, health, life, joy and light, and embrace...what?...the opposite, of course.

In the end, we all get exactly what we choose.

It's not just ridiculous for lust. Odd to be punished for desire. Not surprising, just odd. Acting out lust could be problematic, but just feeling it?

That's not quite what the Sermon on the Mount says. It doesn't condemn "feeling it," but rather indulging in "looking after to lust after." In other words, it's the fantasizing and indulging of the perverted imagination that's toxic, not merely the momentary feeling of attraction.

Now, that may still seem odd to you. But maybe that's because our sense of sin is a little less refined and accurate than that of the Supreme Being. Or maybe we just like excusing the things we ourselves choose to indulge in, and condemn others who choose different sins.

But do you think that a truly righteous and holy God can deal with just those massive sins we like to recognize as such, and and leave lesser ones, the ones you and I have committed, alone? Or would a truly just God have to deal with ALL sins?

It's a serious question. But nobody will answer it, because everybody knows the answer already.

What is the punishment for looking at naked webcam girls for 2 hours?

Which verse of the bible is it?

phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 09, 2026 9:36 pm

But do you think that a truly righteous and holy God can deal with just those massive sins we like to recognize as such, and and leave lesser ones, the ones you and I have committed, alone? Or would a truly just God have to deal with ALL sins?

It's a serious question. But nobody will answer it, because everybody knows the answer already.

What is the punishment for looking at naked webcam girls for 2 hours?

Which verse of the bible is it?

Matthew 5:28 would seem to have that covered.

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 5:28 NIV

Doesn't really tell Gary what he can expect as punishment, does it?