Love

[chaz wyman]

As usual, Chaz thinks he knows women better than they know themselves. ...

However, most men will not wait that long for a "hope and a prayer" and would rather do the "love the one your with" thing. ...

Apparently whats not good for the gander is for the goose?

I see your point. But there is a big distinction there. Chaz is trying to tell me that what I have experienced as a woman is bollocks.

Wrong. What I told you was that you had no right to generalise to ALL women.

I am telling him that it has been my experience as a woman that *most* men ...

And you don't get to talk for most men either.

... it has been my experience that most men would prefer to think that the women is a "lost cause"...

Yes "MY" experience. But you have not experienced MOST men. You can speak for your own experience, as all I did was speak about mine.

[artisticsolution]

C:Wrong. What I told you was that you had no right to generalise to ALL women.

AS: Wrong. What you said that caused me to correct you was :

"All women love to be asked about. Men make the mistake about asking. If she is interested to you she will want you to show interest in her. If she is put off, that means, not that you are being pushy, but that she is not interested. Simple."

You are wrong here. I am part of the female persuasion and if I am telling you what you are "generalizing" about isn't necessarily true, then how can you tell me I generalize about women and you don't...since I don't believe "ALL" women do this and since I am actually a woman...then I would at least know my motives for doing things more than you...since you are NOT a woman. It would be like me saying, "All men love to be asked about. Women make the mistake about asking. If he is interested....blah blah blah" I would not have had such an experience because I am not male. I could not make the statement with any true accuracy because I have zero experience. Whereas, with being a woman...I have at least 1 first count experience of being a woman and knowing how I feel when a man approaches me and if I am interested or not and why. So I have more personal experience with what I am thinking...than you.

I am telling him that it has been my experience as a woman that *most* men ...

C:And you don't get to talk for most men either.

AS: Okay, I will grant you that I can't talk for most men...just as you can't talk for most women.But you have misunderstood me here. I did not try to speak for men....I was only speaking from my experience of being a woman and knowing how most men who I have come in contact with behave. I just thought it was obviously that people would have understood that I have not met *every* man in the world.

... it has been my experience that most men would prefer to think that the women is a "lost cause"...

C:Yes "MY" experience. But you have not experienced MOST men. You can speak for your own experience, as all I did was speak about mine.

AS:Okay, now I understand what you were saying. You were saying "it was your experience.." But from what I read above I would not know that...as it sounded to me as if you were trying to correct duszek about what she feels when a man approaches her.

Do you deny that a woman could have a man come up to her and be pushy to the point it turns her off? Do you deny that a woman could mistake her first impression about a man...whether it be positive or negative?

I mean it is clear to me that it is quite possible that men may sometimes be pushy bruts when talking to a lady...just as women could be when talking to a man. It just seems to me that you want to insist that all men are good or something. Do you ever see the possibility that some of them might be dicks when not in your presence and that quite possibly a woman would be privy to this behavior a little more often than a man? Simply for the fact that some people behave badly when rejected...and since I am a woman who has had a man she was not interested in approach her...that I would know a little more than you about what that was like? Is it possible that you have no clue how men act toward women when you are not around?

[chaz wyman]

C:Wrong. What I told you was that you had no right to generalise to ALL women.

AS: Wrong. What you said that caused me to correct you was :

"All women love to be asked about. Men make the mistake about asking. If she is interested to you she will want you to show interest in her. If she is put off, that means, not that you are being pushy, but that she is not interested. Simple."

I'll go further. All people like to be shown some interest. Ignoring a person is rude and gives no indication that an attraction has taken place.

As for you - I am deleting and ignoring the rest of your post to show you my contempt.

[Pluto]

artisticsolution wrote:

C:Wrong. What I told you was that you had no right to generalise to ALL women.

AS: Wrong. What you said that caused me to correct you was :

"All women love to be asked about. Men make the mistake about asking. If she is interested to you she will want you to show interest in her. If she is put off, that means, not that you are being pushy, but that she is not interested. Simple."



I'll go further. All people like to be shown some interest. Ignoring a person is rude and gives no indication that an attraction has taken place.

As for you - I am deleting and ignoring the rest of your post to show you my contempt.

You're in the wrong thread, this is 'Love' not 'Hate' thread.

[Dimebag]

I see your point. But there is a big distinction there. Chaz is trying to tell me that what I have experienced as a woman is bollocks. I am telling him that it has been my experience as a woman that *most* men will not wait for a year or longer or shorter for that matter to try and convince a woman that he loves her, it has been my experience that most men would prefer to think that the women is a "lost cause" as far as romantic feelings are concerned and he then moves on to greener pastures where he may find "easier" love.

You have to ask yourself why some men might "move on" and call someone they had previously loved intensely, a lost cause. That sort of behavior indicates to me a sort of mental defence against pain felt from love sickness. Basically it is easier to deny that you ever had feelings for someone than to accept you did but know they weren't reciprocated. As humans we always try and minimise pain, so this seems like a logical response. But is it really the easiest path? A person who represses their love for someone under a blanket of hate will no doubt find it hard to get over those feelings and love another person in the same way, it may take them many years to uncover their true feelings and let them run their course.

We can have many "loves" in our lifetime, but as far as my experience goes, we can only ever truly love one person at once. True love entails giving your whole self to one person, so we can't give ourself to any more than one person at any one time.

What is sad is that it doesnt matter how you feel to another person you love, it is only what you show, as the recipient can't know what you feel unless you communicate it to them. So people who feel truly in love with someone but have barriers which stop them showing it are lost unless somthing bleeds out which sparks the interest of the other person. Its not what you feel but how you act. No amount of wishing, hoping or dreaming can get through to the other person. Love requires rash decisions, guts, self confidence and a free spirit in orderr to have a chance of being actualised.

Another thing is perception. When you are around the person you love, everything they do is probed for meaning and intent, and everything you do you assume the person you love knows your intent, which they dont. This means you can float along in a dream, finding meaning in the smallest actions, where there was none. This can stop a person from communicating how they feel, as they might think their gestures are interpreted correctly, and also read into every little thing their love does. This is a recipe for heartache.

Sadly or lives force us to keep our feelings to ourselves, which is the opposite of what needs to happen to allow love to be communicated. We need to break throught the barrier of social convention.

Admittedly much of this is self instruction, however it takes true guts to deny everything you are and throw it all into the wind.

[duszek]

1. Why "on her terms" AS ?

2. By control I do not mean manipulation (taking advantage of the other party not having the whole picture) but remaining a free agent.

3. I think that balance is important and that the two should like each other more or less to the same degree.
A possible criterium:
If neither can say whether he likes or is liked more by the other one.

It´s o.k. to check the tempreture of the other party´s liking.
Any pretext is good enough, even the most un-creative and silly ones, like for example asking what time it is.
What counts is the reaction, as expressed by the tone of the voice, body language etc.

4. I do not remember everything, but some things I remember very long indeed. You cannot tell in advance what will be rememberd and what not. Memory is independent. So there is always a risk that some words or actions of yours will be remembered for ever.

[artisticsolution]

Hi duszek,

D:1. Why "on her terms" AS ?

AS: I think there is a distinction to be made here. There is a huge difference between being in a relationship and a first meeting hoping there will be a relationship. I am talking about the latter, which is the stage that pluto is in regarding his opening post. He is in the beginning stage contemplating whether or not there could be something deeper between himself and the person he is attracted to. Since we only know his feelings at the moment, we can only speak about what he tell us and not about what the girl tells us. For all we know she doesn't know that he exists. We have no idea about her feelings. Since we can only know what Pluto tells us then I think we can only surmise that he is the one who would be wanting a relationship and not the other way around.

Since this is the case, then is stand to reason that "on her terms" would be a more polite way for Pluto to engage the young lady...since he would be the one asking...and she would be the one accepting or rejecting. He would be foolish indeed to go up to her demanding she take the relationship on "his terms" as this she might find rude and turn her off. Although I will admit that some women might find this approach masculine and be turned on. But then we have another thing to consider if that was the case, and that is...Pluto's feelings on the matter. Does he want to be in charge and have a woman who is subservient to him? If so then a relationship might possibly work. But I think that would be too big a risk to take at first if he really wants to get know the girl. Simply because even if she is the subservient type he has no clue if she is a selective subservient type who takes a while to 'warm up'. So I am just playing a numbers game here....there would be a greater chance for pluto to have success if he politely requests to get to know her on her terms rather than demanding to get to know her on his. After they are in a relationship then it becomes a game of give and take. But at first it's not always such the case.

D:2. By control I do not mean manipulation (taking advantage of the other party not having the whole picture) but remaining a free agent.

AS: You mentioned Tom Sawyer and how he got the kids to paint the fence for him. That was pure manipulation as the other parties did not have to whole picture. They were duped into believe that Tom wanted to paint the fence because he thought it was fun. However, in his mind, he did not want to paint the fence and instead wanted someone else to do it. He did not relate that to the other kids. No, he played a trick on their minds and made them think they were getting the best of him. At the end, they realized they have been duped and were not happy about it.

D:3. I think that balance is important and that the two should like each other more or less to the same degree.

AS: But in the beginning stages of the relationship this isnt always the norm. The one who is asking for the relationship to begin is the one who is vulnerable. Because they only know their feelings...they do not know their love interest feelings.

D:A possible criterium:
If neither can say whether he likes or is liked more by the other one.

AS: It could be that pluto's girl like him as much as he likes her. But we can't know that yet...because she is not the one pursuing him. Do you see the difference between first meetings and being in a relationship?

D:It´s o.k. to check the tempreture of the other party´s liking.
Any pretext is good enough, even the most un-creative and silly ones, like for example asking what time it is.
What counts is the reaction, as expressed by the tone of the voice, body language etc.

AS: Yes, but it is not always an accurate account of what the other party is thinking. She might be oblivious that he wants to date her and instead think that he is just a nice person. In that case she might just go about her business as usual with no discernible "body language." That doesn't mean she wouldn't be interested if he had made his intention clear.

D:4. I do not remember everything, but some things I remember very long indeed. You cannot tell in advance what will be rememberd and what not. Memory is independent. So there is always a risk that some words or actions of yours will be remembered for ever.

AS; Yes, words or actions might be remembered forever...but the problem with remember forever is that no one is perfect and if you are in a relationship for years...that's a long time to be held up to scrutiny for every little wrong thing you might say or do in your life. It is quite possible to have a bad day and let emotions get the best of you. Horrible to have a person who either leaves you or holds that against you every day of your life. Not only horrible for the person having the bad day but horrible for the one who holds a grudge as well....as they will be hard pressed to find someone who never has a bad day. So they might feel disappointment time after time in relationship because they are looking for something that doesn't exist...namely...the perfect person.

[duszek]

You are perfectly right, AS, Tom Sawyer was cheating and manipulating. It is a clear-cut example of this.
But you can learn something interesting from such an experiece: that work and play can switch from one to the other.
Pippi Langstrumpf switch the household chore of cleaning the floors to the play of gliding on some cloths.
I am still working on this method: I have no carpet (which is lovely and is going to stay that way) and I use pieces of woolen cloths which have proven to be the best so far. And you can move in the rhythm of merengue, salsa does not work because steps are necessary, but merengue works well.

Why should Pluto be the one who wants the relationship ? After all, it was the girl who approached him at the party.
The best would be that nobody is the seeker and that both come magically together as if attracted to each other magnetically.

[Pluto]

Why should Pluto be the one who wants the relationship ? After all, it was the girl who approached him at the party.
The best would be that nobody is the seeker and that both come magically together as if attracted to each other magnetically.

Agreed. In a way, I'm not sure a relationship would be possible, for as always, there are others involved and thus complexes arise/exist. Plus she's much younger than I, etc.

She did approach me, somewhat magnetically actually, I looked at the fireworks, saw her in the distance then suddenly next to me. Her face as we spoke, radiant and a warm glow came over me, though this could've been the fireworks.

[chaz wyman]

Why should Pluto be the one who wants the relationship ? After all, it was the girl who approached him at the party.
The best would be that nobody is the seeker and that both come magically together as if attracted to each other magnetically.

Agreed. In a way, I'm not sure a relationship would be possible, for as always, there are others involved and thus complexes arise/exist. Plus she's much younger than I, etc.

She did approach me, somewhat magnetically actually, I looked at the fireworks, saw her in the distance then suddenly next to me. Her face as we spoke, radiant and a warm glow came over me, though this could've been the fireworks.

Others involved? Does that means one or both of you are already in a relationship?

Unless the age difference is more than 20 years, I fail to see why it is important?
Are you decrepit?