The Big Bang is Busted

[chaz wyman]

Nothing,,????
like between your ears .
Yes we are a insignificant spec in a infinite Universe.
You actually said something .
I repeat , "what exists prior to the BB ,"
what is in the space before the space existed .???
To say nonsense like no space time , will fly over the heads of most .
Try and remember these are theories ,
if the bb isn't true ,
what other theories are there .
WEll the Universe could be infinite , the bbt claims it is finite .
try describing the edge of the Universe , whats on the other side ,???
Hubble admitted not being able to see the edge .
So if the Universe is infinite the bbt is bullshit,,!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't believe you launched an unprovoked personal attack. I guess that sums you up!

Nothing has to exist at all!

This is a contradiction in terms. Something has to exist to make the concept of exist.

To claim it does, as if you know, is a falsehood!

To claim this is a falsehood, is self contradictory; itself a falsehood.


So what peer reviewed scientific papers have you authored? Did you have Stephen take a look at them. It's a shame Albert is dead, you could show him a thing or two.

[Godfree]

So I keep asking people to describe the "nothing" but like god or eternal life , it's just a part of the puzzle that makes no sense , has no proof ,
it fits the story of religion , the big bang .
But nothing else .
There are no other examples in nature of nothing .
seems thats what they say is beyond the "Known Universe" nothing,
we live in this little ball of matter called the known universe and outside that is "nothing"
insanity is the only way I could describe such gobledegook .
,but of course most of the planet is insane .
Most of the planet imagine god is real , totally insane .
So we shouldn't be surprised that whatever they come up with will also be insane .

[Notvacka]

To ask what was "before" the big bang is the same as asking what is outside the universe.

The problem is that from our physical position inside the universe, we have no way to find out.

The answer could be anything, including God or nothing.

[chaz wyman]

So I keep asking people to describe the "nothing" but like god or eternal life , it's just a part of the puzzle that makes no sense , has no proof ,
it fits the story of religion , the big bang .
But nothing else .
There are no other examples in nature of nothing .
seems thats what they say is beyond the "Known Universe" nothing,
we live in this little ball of matter called the known universe and outside that is "nothing"
insanity is the only way I could describe such gobledegook .
,but of course most of the planet is insane .
Most of the planet imagine god is real , totally insane .
So we shouldn't be surprised that whatever they come up with will also be insane .

The more you go on - the more I am convinced that the BBT is the best explanation we have , and nothing whatever to do with religious ideology (as I have demonstrated).

[Godfree]

[


The more you go on - the more I am convinced that the BBT is the best explanation we have , and nothing whatever to do with religious ideology (as I have demonstrated).[/quote]
That is the skeptics role , Chaz true to form ,
An Atheist would see infinity as the best answer we have,
and the bbt claims finite .
finite thinking ,blind faith ,if we are to accept things like the bb on blind faith , whats the difference between that and religion .
The facts , are conflicting with this bb ,
but why should we let the facts get in the way of a good story ,
we must appease the minds of our frightened little children ,
that is most of society ,there aren't many adults in this world ,!!!

[chaz wyman]

The more you go on - the more I am convinced that the BBT is the best explanation we have , and nothing whatever to do with religious ideology (as I have demonstrated).

That is the skeptics role , Chaz true to form ,
An Atheist would see infinity as the best answer we have,

Wrong. The BBT is currently the best fit explanation in cosmology.
It is based on evidence gathered by science.
As the yield of atheists in science is higher than other fields, you assertion is wrong.
As the BBT is more widely accepted by atheist than creationists who think "let there be light" is a better explanation, your assertion is wrong.

The problem is simply with you. You are obsessed by a false similarity which you seem to see between the bible and the BBT.
Consequently you are making a fool of yourself because you are allowing your prejudice to affect your judgement.
In this you are no better than the sort of thinking we most commonly see from Theists.




and the bbt claims finite .
finite thinking ,blind faith ,if we are to accept things like the bb on blind faith , whats the difference between that and religion .
The facts , are conflicting with this bb ,
but why should we let the facts get in the way of a good story ,
we must appease the minds of our frightened little children ,
that is most of society ,there aren't many adults in this world ,!!!

[SpheresOfBalance]

[


The more you go on - the more I am convinced that the BBT is the best explanation we have , and nothing whatever to do with religious ideology (as I have demonstrated).

That is the skeptics role , Chaz true to form ,
An Atheist would see infinity as the best answer we have,
and the bbt claims finite .
finite thinking ,blind faith ,if we are to accept things like the bb on blind faith , whats the difference between that and religion .
The facts , are conflicting with this bb ,
but why should we let the facts get in the way of a good story ,
we must appease the minds of our frightened little children ,
that is most of society ,there aren't many adults in this world ,!!![/quote]

God free, what you're saying is somewhat ridiculous, I say this because: From the moment you were born everything was finite in terms of both size and time, Your body, life, crib, house, car, streets, continent, planet, solar system, star, etc. They are all finite in both size and time. PERIOD! You've always believed this until such time as you grew up to a certain point at which time you heard of the infinite. And in your finite world you decided to embrace this infinite. It sounded cool! Wow, infinite; never ending, I like that. As a human, my greatest fear, death! Infinite sounds very appealing to me. Of course it does, what mortal wouldn't embrace infinity, as if they could harness it. But the simple FACT remains that everything that is verifiable in your world is finite. ANYONE (human) would have to take a HUGH leap of FAITH to embrace anything other than that which is finite. Such that your belief in the infinite is as much as of a god! How could anything that is infinite yield anything more/less than that, that is infinite? Is that what you're hoping (have FAITH in)?

[Godfree]

Seems we both think the other is just not getting it !!!
But I think I got it a long time ago ,
My father was a teacher and from an early age I have been able to have informed discussions on such subjects .
I don't believe "nothing" is possible .no space time , completely insane .
If we are to base our opinion on what most people think , we would be religious smoke tabaco drink and be obese .
Most people are pretty stupid .
you can argue as much as you like that we don't know whats outside the known universe , and I agree we don't know much about it .
but it's impossible for the universe to end ,
there can be no end to space.So my brain says there is only one possibility ,
Infinity .
You say the bb is the best we know ,
I say it's an impossible story about how finite peoples brains are .

[Arising_uk]

...
there can be no end to space.So my brain says there is only one possibility ,
Infinity .
You say the bb is the best we know ,
I say it's an impossible story about how finite peoples brains are .

Hmm... where in the BBT theory does it say that the Universe may not persist unto infinity? I thought that the latest was that it will expand until heat-death and then carry on without heat exchange?

[Godfree]

...
there can be no end to space.So my brain says there is only one possibility ,
Infinity .
You say the bb is the best we know ,
I say it's an impossible story about how finite peoples brains are .

Hmm... where in the BBT theory does it say that the Universe may not persist unto infinity? I thought that the latest was that it will expand until heat-death and then carry on without heat exchange?

According to the bbt , in the beginning there was no space and no time .
the universe didn't exist , the bang creates the space as it expands.
So it's not expanding into space it's the space expanding .
and we are to believe that outside that is "NOTHING"
I have argued on Sam Harrises site the reason project with a couple of bbt supporters , they insisted the universe was either the shape of a football or a saddle .and outside that , was ,"NOTHING"
If what you say is correct that science is now thinking that the universe is infinite and our known universe will just keep expanding into it .
that conflicts with the no space time beginning .
so if they accept infinity . Then the bang happened in space , space that was already there , and that is certainly not what they think,!!!

[Arising_uk]

According to the bbt , in the beginning there was no space and no time .
the universe didn't exist , the bang creates the space as it expands.
So it's not expanding into space it's the space expanding .
and we are to believe that outside that is "NOTHING"
I have argued on Sam Harrises site the reason project with a couple of bbt supporters , they insisted the universe was either the shape of a football or a saddle .and outside that , was ,"NOTHING"
If what you say is correct that science is now thinking that the universe is infinite and our known universe will just keep expanding into it .
that conflicts with the no space time beginning .
so if they accept infinity . Then the bang happened in space , space that was already there , and that is certainly not what they think,!!!

The physicists I've chatted to just say that the "nothing" they talk about is not a thing like you want but a non-concept for us. Hence they have the maths that can describe an infinite bounded space with no need for an 'outside', they'll leave that to the metaphysicians and religious to discuss.

I think you keep forgetting that Time is a direction in their model. I also think you confuse the chat about the BBT with the actual understanding that only an understanding of the maths provides.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Seems we both think the other is just not getting it !!!
Probably true, or am I just playing devils advocate?
But I think I got it a long time ago ,
You would, so would I and everyone else. It's false to believe that length of belief gives way to truth.
My father was a teacher and from an early age I have been able to have informed discussions on such subjects .
What kind of teacher and is he published?
I don't believe "nothing" is possible .no space time , completely insane .
And of course you have that right, man once believed the earth was flat.
If we are to base our opinion on what most people think , we would be religious smoke tabaco drink and be obese .
Who says either one of us or anyone here for that matter base their opinions on most people. I've done no surveys, have you?
Most people are pretty stupid .
I believe this is incorrect and is extremely arrogant, and that 'ignorant' is more in keeping with truth.
you can argue as much as you like that we don't know whats outside the known universe , and I agree we don't know much about it .
Good, finally a rational statement based in truth.
but it's impossible for the universe to end ,
You just contradicted yourself, unless you have a math proof to share, improbable is more in keeping with truth, from a guessers point of view, as anything is possible. You said as much in your previous sentence.
there can be no end to space.So my brain says there is only one possibility ,
Infinity .
What, there can be no end because you say so? Who do you think you are anyway, a god?
You say the bb is the best we know ,
I say it's an impossible story about how finite peoples brains are . Thus because you believe in the opposite yours is infinite, right? I thought so, do you believe that you may suffer from megalomania?

[Godfree]

We can say that it's all just maths ,but you don't need maths to look at the idea of nothing .
So I will ask you SOB ,,please tell ,
no space time , we can say , but it's not possible .
do you really accept the universe did not exist before the bang .
if so what did exist,?????
My opinion is the bang must have been a large black hole ,
black holes are constructed over time with motion ,
in other words the universe was organizing the matter into a big enough pile to go bang .
give me an alternative ,,,did god do it ,???
how and what went bang,?????????????

[SpheresOfBalance]

We can say that it's all just maths ,but you don't need maths to look at the idea of nothing .
I didn't say it was just math! I believe it's both, and if so, then you and I only have one of the two that are required, such that we're not educated guessers, we're just guessers.
So I will ask you SOB ,,please tell ,
no space time , we can say , but it's not possible .
I believe that we can say that from our perspective we believe it's improbable. But you can never truthfully say that its impossible.
do you really accept the universe did not exist before the bang .
if so what did exist,?????
You're assuming there has to be existence. Who said so? It could be said that your inability to see nothingness as a possibility indicates that your mind is limited, after all it is an extremely HUGE thing to imagine, you indicated so yourself. What did you call it, insane? To believe that there was no existence what so ever, is even more mind boggling than infinity. But both are mind boggling. Picture infinity! You can't, as their is no complete picture possible that you can formulate in your minds eye. 'Nothing' is kind of the same thing but even worse, neither can be seen in the minds eye completely as both are without a definite size. Both are not equally infinite in time however as ones beginning was the others end.

I'm not necessarily saying that it's true, but I'm not necessarily saying it's not either. I try to look at the universe in wonder. I don't necessarily have preconceived ideas. I like to approach it like a sponge absorbing the particulars of all given theories. I believe that while doing so, entertaining each ones specific intricacies, in terms of being possible, after time the most logical will automatically work its way to the forefront, of it's own fruition. And who knows the truth may be a combination of several theories. I'm afraid that if I force the issue I may miss something due to my preconceived bias. And I don't want to miss anything. I admit that sometimes initially I don't like a particular idea, but I still consider it possible.

So you're not going to get a definitive answer out of me. But i shall say that I actually once believed exactly as you do, that space is an infinite empty void that has matter strewn throughout in various spiral clumps. Though apparently we now know that there are other shapes of galaxies, besides the somewhat standard spirals.

My opinion is the bang must have been a large black hole ,
black holes are constructed over time with motion ,
Actually I've understood that black holes are due to the collapse of extremely large stars due to an extremely massive core, well beyond that of a simple supernova.

in other words the universe was organizing the matter into a big enough pile to go bang .
give me an alternative ,,,did god do it ,???
how and what went bang,?????????????
Your guess is as good as mine. My only recommendation is to entertain it all as being possible.

[Godfree]

[e

My opinion is the bang must have been a large black hole ,
black holes are constructed over time with motion ,
Actually I've understood that black holes are due to the collapse of extremely large stars due to an extremely massive core, well beyond that of a simple supernova.

i

[/quote][/quote]
There is a problem with that idea ,,,
There are very large galaxies at the edge of the known universe they have massive black holes some as big as 18 billion suns worth .
So calculate how long would it take for 18 billion suns to go through that process .
Taking in to consideration , the fact that the image we are looking at is 13 billion years old,
That only leaves them half a billion years to do aaall of that.
it sounds impossible ,
So they are suggesting the bang spat out large hunks of black hole ,
thus forming a galaxy quicker ,
But there a problem with that .
Thats then assuming the bang was a big black hole .
And we are now back to time and motion before the BB,
I got them stuffed either way ,LOL