Universal health care in a universe created by God

[Immanuel Can]

Being worried about "stealing" money from society's wealthier by installing progressive taxes to pay for social programs must keep you awake at night.

Oh? So your plan is to "steal" the money to pay for it? It will magically come from "society's wealthier"? And in infinite, unchanging supply, too?

Do the details. Whom will you "steal" from, by what means, how will you prevent them from refusing, and how will you secure a perpetual supply of it? Let's see if what you have in mind will work.

I don't view taxing the wealthier as "stealing" from them.

Yes, but who is this "wealthier," and how are you going to get the money? Will they sit still while you do?

And even if you did, how are you going to keep it flowing, once you've milked Nancy Pelosi, or Bill Gates, or whomever, for all they have?

C'mon, Gary...how can you demand something you cannot even figure out how to make possible?

[Walker]

So, which is destroying America more, illegal immigrants or Democrats? Who should we expel from the country first, maybe immigrants and then after that work on getting rid of Democrats?

Gracious. What would you do?

[Impenitent]

anyone who wants free health care can enlist

-Imp

[Gary Childress]

Oh? So your plan is to "steal" the money to pay for it? It will magically come from "society's wealthier"? And in infinite, unchanging supply, too?

Do the details. Whom will you "steal" from, by what means, how will you prevent them from refusing, and how will you secure a perpetual supply of it? Let's see if what you have in mind will work.

I don't view taxing the wealthier as "stealing" from them.

Yes, but who is this "wealthier," and how are you going to get the money? Will they sit still while you do?

And even if you did, how are you going to keep it flowing, once you've milked Nancy Pelosi, or Bill Gates, or whomever, for all they have?

C'mon, Gary...how can you demand something you cannot even figure out how to make possible?

Strawmen and you know it. That's NOT how progressive taxes work. You're trying to fabricate obstacles that don't exist. Getting desperate to justify the wealth of the 1% it appears. As I say, it must keep you up at night thinking of progressively taxing the wealthier members of society. Maybe if we just let people go without any healthcare at all, you'll be able to sleep better? Will that help?

[Gary Childress]

So, which is destroying America more, illegal immigrants or Democrats? Who should we expel from the country first, maybe immigrants and then after that work on getting rid of Democrats?

Gracious. What would you do?

I'd stop chasing phantoms that you falsely believe are "destroying" America. Maybe look at the Republican Party. Destroying America isn't just enough for them. It's important to them to destroy the entire world with increased fossil fuel consumption and burning coal. Oh wait. There is no climate problem. It's a hoax. My bad.

[Immanuel Can]

I don't view taxing the wealthier as "stealing" from them.

Yes, but who is this "wealthier," and how are you going to get the money? Will they sit still while you do?

And even if you did, how are you going to keep it flowing, once you've milked Nancy Pelosi, or Bill Gates, or whomever, for all they have?

C'mon, Gary...how can you demand something you cannot even figure out how to make possible?

Strawmen and you know it.

Quite the reverse: this is exactly what you need to do, if you want to say that we owe everybody universal health care.

You see, Gary, there's a basic axiom in ethics: "ought implies can." (Kant) This means that it is irrational to try to say to somebody that they "should" do something that they simply cannot do, do not have the power or the opportunity or means to do. Thus, I cannot tell you, "Gary, it's your moral duty to pay for my healthcare," if you have no money. You can't do it. So your failure to do it cannot be a moral failure. You're innocent, even if you don't pay for my healthcare.

You cannot demand that everybody OUGHT to get universal healthcare, unless you have a way of showing that they CAN have universal healthcare.

So show it. Show your demand is reasonable. Show it can be done, and you can rationally be able to demand it. But if you cannot...you cannot.

Again: how are you going to get Nancy Pelosi to pay her fair share? And once you do, how are you going to get the Pelosi funds not to run out?

[Gary Childress]

You cannot demand that everybody OUGHT to get universal healthcare, unless you have a way of showing that they CAN have universal healthcare.

God you must be thick. If I spell it out in all caps will you be able to read what I've been typing?

INSTITUTE MEDICARE FOR ALL AND PAY FOR IT BY PLACING PROGRESSIVE TAXES (ACCORDING TO WEALTH) ON MEMBERS OF SOCIETY.

There, I've said it again. Feel free to catastrophize about how the end of the world will result from it.

[Immanuel Can]

You cannot demand that everybody OUGHT to get universal healthcare, unless you have a way of showing that they CAN have universal healthcare.

INSTITUTE MEDICARE FOR ALL AND PAY FOR IT BY PLACING PROGRESSIVE TAXES (ACCORDING TO WEALTH) ON MEMBERS OF SOCIETY.

Easy to say. Too easy, and too easy to do nothing.

How would you DO it?

Take Nancy Pelosi. She is worth at least $250 million, right now. So she's definitely among the "wealthier." How are you going to get her to pay? Are you going to send the police? Are you just going to ask nicely? Are you going to make a law, and just hope she doesn't shelter her money offshore, or flee the country? How will you get the job done? We need her money, and lots of people like her, to cough up their riches.

And when her $250 million runs out -- which it most certainly will, very shortly, because giving Americans universal health care is a bill of at least $5 trillion per year -- how will you keep that money flowing indefinitely?

Go.

[Gary Childress]

How would you DO it?

Are you not aware that we currently collect taxes? Are you not aware that taxes are somewhat progressive according to wealth but people are still becoming billionaires in spite of it? Are you not aware that Medicare exists and is a successful program? Can we therefore not extend Medicare to include everyone? Does that sound feasible, or would you like me to include floor plans of the respective government offices that would need to be created to institute the system, or will you take my word of it that it can be tried? If not, please extend me the courtesy of a few years to get my degree in architecture. Apparently, I'll have to spell everything out in Braille for you before we can even try it.

[Immanuel Can]

How would you DO it?

Are you not aware that we currently collect taxes?

Medicare to everybody would cost $5 trillion per year. So says AI.

So you're going to change the law so that Nancy Pelosi has to give you her $250 million? And Nancy will sit still for that? That's your assumption?

I wonder why Nancy hasn't already donated that $250 million to Medicare. She could do that anytime. Why not now?

After she does, what are you going to do when, within the month, her money runs out?

...will you take my word of it that it can be tried?

Definitely not. Why would I? The logistics don't work at all. And you haven't even offered a plan for how to do it; why would I just assume you had one when you can't explain it?

[Gary Childress]

How would you DO it?

Are you not aware that we currently collect taxes?

Medicare to everybody would cost $5 trillion per year. So says AI.

So you're going to change the law so that Nancy Pelosi has to give you her $250 million? And Nancy will sit still for that? That's your assumption?

I wonder why Nancy hasn't already donated that $250 million to Medicare. She could do that anytime. Why not now?

After she does, what are you going to do when, within the month, her money runs out?

...will you take my word of it that it can be tried?

Definitely not. Why would I? The logistics don't work at all. And you haven't even offered a plan for how to do it; why would I just assume you had one when you can't explain it?

What a joke of an answer. If you believe it can't be done before even trying it, then don't vote for it if it comes up in Canada. You can try to convince your fellow Canadians that doing away with universal health care is the only solution and will result in a glorious utopia by comparison, if that's what you believe. Or, as I say, pray harder to God for a solution. Christians aren't hesitant to exclaim to me how well "prayer" works.

[phyllo]

72 countries have some sort of universal health system. 69% of the world population.

The beginnings of the German system go back to 1883. The beginnings of the Canadian system go back to 1947.

To say that nobody knows how to run and finance a universal health care system is bs.

[Immanuel Can]

To say that nobody knows how to run and finance a universal health care system is bs.

Pick one. Let's look at it.

[Immanuel Can]

Are you not aware that we currently collect taxes?

Medicare to everybody would cost $5 trillion per year. So says AI.

So you're going to change the law so that Nancy Pelosi has to give you her $250 million? And Nancy will sit still for that? That's your assumption?

I wonder why Nancy hasn't already donated that $250 million to Medicare. She could do that anytime. Why not now?

After she does, what are you going to do when, within the month, her money runs out?

...will you take my word of it that it can be tried?

Definitely not. Why would I? The logistics don't work at all. And you haven't even offered a plan for how to do it; why would I just assume you had one when you can't explain it?

What a joke of an answer. If you believe it can't be done before even trying it, then don't vote for it if it comes up in Canada.

It's already been tried there, and it's going down in flames, right now, as we speak.

You can try to convince your fellow Canadians that doing away with universal health care is the only solution and will result in a glorious utopia by comparison, if that's what you believe.

I'm not saying that. I'm not proposing to know what the answer is. I don't even think there IS an answer.

But pretending there's one, when there isn't, is likely to create worst case scenarios. You'd TRY to implement it, and it would crash immediately. You absolutely have to have a strategy for implementation, because the costs in human suffering and human impoverishment are simply far too high if you get it wrong. There's no win if you can't make universal health care a) sustainable, b) fiscally practical, and c) fairly distributable. (For example, do you extend universal healthcare to illegal migrants? If you do, you'll take those resources away from citizens, so you'll have to make a decision about that.)

Nobody's been able to do that so far, to my knowledge: certainly, Canada couldn't do it. Norway couldn't do it. The UK couldn't do it. Who can? How did they manage to do it? The world would be much benefitted if somebody could. But the plan HAS to be doable, or its a disaster.

If you're genuinely compassionate, you understand this. If you don't understand it, then you wouldn't be compassionate -- you'd just be ideologically possessed and radically misguided.

So what's the plan? How do you get Pelosi's money?

[Impenitent]

how many gazillions are we in debt?

-Imp