Corporation Socialism

[henry quirk]

What is meant by "determinism"?

This...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

...is determinism.

Square that with Mike's insistence determinism doesn’t imply that our choices are meaningless or that we lack responsibility, or our volitions—our conscious desires and decisions—are real and matter immensely, or that determinism can actually foster compassion, insight, and better decision-making.

I sure as hell can't (and neither can Mike).

[Gary Childress]

What is meant by "determinism"?

This...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

...is determinism.

Perhaps BigMike is describing himself quite well. Who knows? I sure don't.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Gary writes: Perhaps BigMike is describing himself quite well.

Here, you employ intuition, which is one of the rather mysterious aspects of our consciousness powers, isn’t it? That we have a mind with unique and penetrating capabilities.

In my view, and if one seeks an interpretive lever to lift the rock and peer into BigMike’s conceptions, we will have to consider psychological factors. I don’t mean to imply anything clinical but rather that (again, my view) BigMike operates from an established — felt — position which excludes the view of essential mystery about the largest and most profound questions: existence itself; consciousness; awareness and human potency. There is something in this that expresses or reflects a perceptual stance that has “mass appeal” and perhaps it is a mass phenomenon (and therefore amenable to some level of psychological analysis).

In my view, this “reductionism” is not (allow me to put it this way) healthy. It is then a sign of intellectual degeneracy. But I do admit that the “recovery of health” and the means to get to it are beyond any doubt fraught and problematic.

So I employ tinged psychological terms like “locked” or “trapped” by pseudo-intellectual constructions, reenforced by language constructions and a compelling rhetoric (bolstered by contempt, shaming and ridicule) that (perhaps) provide a (false?) sense of security at that psychological level.

The phenomenon of investing in that sense that “everything is explained” by reliance on a reductionism — and please note as well: the basic lie that one must enforce on oneself (that one lacks agency, choice and potency and moral responsibility) which is refuted by everything one does!

Surely these aspects of the extraordinary sophistry of BigMike’s Dance of Certainty can be examined, though I admit that intuition is a problematic term.

The issues under examination draw everyone in because not only because they are topically interesting but of sheer and vital concern to our existential selves (is my interpretation).

[henry quirk]

What is meant by "determinism"?

This...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

...is determinism.

Perhaps BigMike is describing himself quite well. Who knows? I sure don't.

I don't think Mike believes any of it. I don't think any self-described determinist believes any of it.

[Gary Childress]

This......is determinism.

Perhaps BigMike is describing himself quite well. Who knows? I sure don't.

I don't think Mike believes any of it.

He has to. He has no other choice, given his circumstances. ...I guess

[BigMike]

What is meant by "determinism"?

This...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

...is determinism.

Square that with Mike's insistence determinism doesn’t imply that our choices are meaningless or that we lack responsibility, or our volitions—our conscious desires and decisions—are real and matter immensely, or that determinism can actually foster compassion, insight, and better decision-making.

I sure as hell can't (and neither can Mike).

Henry, what’s the contradiction you think you see? Saying “our choices matter” is perfectly compatible with determinism because choices are part of the causal chain—they’re caused by prior events (including changed synapses in your brain through learning and memory), they influence outcomes, and they shape future causes. The deterministic nature of the brain doesn’t negate the reality or importance of choices; it explains how and why they occur.

Your inability to reconcile this seems rooted in a misunderstanding of what determinism means. Choices matter because they’re causally significant. They don’t pop out of nowhere, but they still have real-world effects. For example, the decision to change a habit, vote in an election, or teach someone something valuable—all of these actions influence future events, even though they’re determined by prior causes like upbringing, experiences, and biological processes.

Determinism doesn’t deny responsibility—it reframes it. Responsibility means acknowledging the causal factors that shaped a decision and taking actions that align with desired outcomes. If you’re stuck seeing “determinism” as incompatible with meaningful action, that’s not a fault of the concept—it’s a gap in your understanding.

[Immanuel Can]

What is meant by "determinism"?

This...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

...is determinism.

Square that with Mike's insistence determinism doesn’t imply that our choices are meaningless or that we lack responsibility, or our volitions—our conscious desires and decisions—are real and matter immensely, or that determinism can actually foster compassion, insight, and better decision-making.

I sure as hell can't (and neither can Mike).

Your inability to reconcile this seems rooted in a misunderstanding of what determinism means.

No, Mike, sorry -- it's actually reflective of your choice to refuse the revelations of basic logic. If "choices" are "made for us" by prior conditions, then our "choice" contributes absolutely nothing to the explanation. It doesn't represent anything real...just a feeling we happen to have, of having influenced events, when in fact we've done nothing of the kind.

Determinism doesn’t deny responsibility

Actually, that's exactly what it denies. It denies that there's any "we" who has the "ability" to "respond." It posits nothing but a chain of impersonal cause-and-effect, in which human beings merely function as dead "links" in a chain predetermined without us.

But apparently, you don't see it because you don't WANT there to be any such problems in Determinism -- not because those problems do not exist in Determinism. Henry's right. They certainly do.

[henry quirk]

The deterministic nature of the brain doesn’t negate the reality or importance of choices; it explains how and why they occur.

Mike, if this...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

...is true, there is no choice. If I literally can't go left becuz I want to (becuz my very wanting to is causally inevitable) then I have no choice. No capacity, no capability. I'm just a node moving as deterministic forces drive me.

Your inability to reconcile...

Determinism and choice are irreconcilable, Mike. I can go left, I can go right. To choose means I decide which way based on my criteria. Not criteria thrust on me: my criteria. Determinism robs me of even having my own criteria, my own measure. I don't exist as anything but, again, a node, a meat machine, an aggregate of particles. Nuthin' I do or think or say is mine, and none of it matters. And, if you think any of it does matter, well, that's all causally inevitable: you're a meat machine driven to it. As I've said before: you get no gold star for being determinism's bitch and I ought not be pilloried for championing agent causality, cuz, if this...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

...is true, we're only thinking, saying, and doing as we must. We have no control over any of it. We are both slaves to amoral, blind, deterministic forces.

It's all horse shit, of course. I don't believe a word of it. I don't believe you believe a word of it. But, for some deranged reason, this is the hill you, a free will, have chosen to die on.

So be it.

Determinism doesn’t deny responsibility—it reframes it.

No, Mike. You wanna redefine words like responsibility and choice cuz, as they are, words like responsibility and choice are empty in determinism.

[BigMike]

The deterministic nature of the brain doesn’t negate the reality or importance of choices; it explains how and why they occur.

Mike, if this...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

...is true, there is no choice. If I literally can't go left becuz I want to (becuz my very wanting to is causally inevitable) then I have no choice. No capacity, no capability. I'm just a node moving as deterministic forces drive me.

Your inability to reconcile...

Determinism and choice are irreconcilable, Mike. I can go left, I can go right. To choose means I decide which way based on my criteria. Not criteria thrust on me: my criteria. Determinism robs me of even having my own criteria, my own measure. I don't exist as anything but, again, a node, a meat machine, an aggregate of particles. Nuthin' I do or think or say is mine, and none of it matters. And, if you think any of it does matter, well, that's all causally inevitable: you're a meat machine driven to it. As I've said before: you get no gold star for being determinism's bitch and I ought not be pilloried for championing agent causality, cuz, if this...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

...is true, we're only thinking, saying, and doing as we must. We have no control over any of it. We are both slaves to amoral, blind, deterministic forces.

It's all horse shit, of course. I don't believe a word of it. I don't believe you believe a word of it. But, for some deranged reason, this is the hill you, a free will, have chosen to die on.

So be it.

Determinism doesn’t deny responsibility—it reframes it.

No, Mike. You wanna redefine words like responsibility and choice cuz, as they are, words like responsibility and choice are empty in determinism.

Henry, you’re still misunderstanding the distinction between causality and choice. Determinism doesn’t mean choices don’t exist—it means that the process of choosing is itself determined by prior causes. Let’s break it down:

When you say, "I can go left, I can go right," you’re describing an apparent choice. But the fact that you ultimately go left or right is determined by the interplay of your past experiences, desires, knowledge, and the circumstances you find yourself in at that moment. These are your criteria—they emerge from your unique, causally influenced brain and life experiences. Saying those criteria aren’t “yours” because they’re influenced by prior causes is like saying your thoughts aren’t yours because your brain produces them. It’s nonsensical.

Determinism doesn’t redefine responsibility or choice—it explains their mechanisms. Responsibility means recognizing that your actions are shaped by causes and taking steps to align them with desired outcomes. You’re responsible because your brain evaluates options and makes decisions based on its causally determined processes. None of this makes choice meaningless; it explains why choices matter—they influence future outcomes in predictable ways.

Your insistence that determinism “robs” you of agency is based on a romanticized notion of free will that requires you to somehow exist outside causality, uninfluenced by anything. That’s not freedom—that’s incoherence. You’re still you: a complex system of experiences, thoughts, and desires, all interacting to produce the choices you make. Saying those choices are determined doesn’t make them any less yours.

Finally, whether you “believe” in determinism or not doesn’t change the fact that no evidence has ever shown a breakdown of causality. The universe doesn’t stop to validate your feelings. Determinism isn’t a “hill to die on”; it’s the natural conclusion of understanding how the world operates. If you find that unsettling, perhaps you’re clinging to a notion of free will that was never more than comforting fiction.

[Immanuel Can]

Saying versus Meaning

1. "Let's clarify." / "I'm not considering the logic of what you say, thanks."
2. "You're confused." / "What you are saying does not fit what I am willing to believe."
3. "Let's break it down." / "Let me repeat my error, so maybe you'll be fooled this time."
4. "You're a _______(bad person)." / "I hate that you are not bowing to my illogic."

[henry quirk]

Determinism doesn’t mean choices don’t exist

Yes, Mike, it does.

Choice refers to the act of selecting or making a decision between options. It can also imply the power or opportunity to choose freely among various alternatives. -Merriam-Webster

If I don’t control my thoughts, my desires, or my decisions, if I'm driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli then I cannot choose.

Determinism doesn’t redefine responsibility or choice

I didn't say it did. I said: You wanna redefine words like responsibility and choice cuz, as they are, words like responsibility and choice are empty in determinism.

Responsibility means recognizing that your actions are shaped by causes and taking steps to align them with desired outcomes.

If I don’t control my thoughts, my desires, or my decisions, if I'm driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli, then how in High Hell am I supposed to recognize & align?

You’re responsible because your brain evaluates options and makes decisions based on its causally determined processes.

If I don’t control my thoughts, my desires, or my decisions, if I'm driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli then, no, I'm not responsible. I can't be.

[BigMike]

Determinism doesn’t mean choices don’t exist

Yes, Mike, it does.

Choice refers to the act of selecting or making a decision between options. It can also imply the power or opportunity to choose freely among various alternatives. -Merriam-Webster

If I don’t control my thoughts, my desires, or my decisions, if I'm driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli then I cannot choose.

Determinism doesn’t redefine responsibility or choice

I didn't say it did. I said: You wanna redefine words like responsibility and choice cuz, as they are, words like responsibility and choice are empty in determinism.

Responsibility means recognizing that your actions are shaped by causes and taking steps to align them with desired outcomes.

If I don’t control my thoughts, my desires, or my decisions, if I'm driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli, then how in High Hell am I supposed to recognize & align?

You’re responsible because your brain evaluates options and makes decisions based on its causally determined processes.

If I don’t control my thoughts, my desires, or my decisions, if I'm driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli then, no, I'm not responsible. I can't be.

Henry, you’re still conflating causality with compulsion and misunderstanding what determinism entails. Let me clarify:

When Merriam-Webster defines choice as "the act of selecting or making a decision between options," it doesn’t presuppose that the act occurs in some mystical vacuum of causelessness. The process of choosing—evaluating options, weighing criteria, and deciding—is itself part of the causal chain. Your brain, shaped by its experiences, biology, and current inputs, is the mechanism by which those choices are made.

You ask, "If I don’t control my thoughts, desires, or decisions...how am I supposed to recognize and align?" The answer is simple: you do recognize and align because your brain is causally structured to evaluate and act. Recognition and alignment aren’t magic—they’re the outcomes of your brain’s processes. Those processes are deterministic but incredibly complex, allowing for adaptation, learning, and self-reflection.

Responsibility under determinism isn’t about having ultimate, uncaused control—it’s about understanding the factors that influence your actions and making decisions accordingly. For example, if you learn that eating poorly leads to bad health, you might decide to eat better. That decision, though determined by your experiences and knowledge, still shapes your future behavior and outcomes. Does the fact that it’s caused make it any less meaningful? Of course not.

Your insistence that determinism negates responsibility ignores how responsibility actually functions in the real world. It’s not about being an uncaused agent; it’s about being the product of causes and using that understanding to act in ways that align with your goals. The deterministic nature of your brain doesn’t negate this—it explains how it happens.

[Gary Childress]

When Merriam-Webster defines choice as "the act of selecting or making a decision between options," it doesn’t presuppose that the act occurs in some mystical vacuum of causelessness.

I mean, are we not able to weigh options and say, "this is the sort of person I want to be" and then be defined and responsible for the choice we make?

[BigMike]

When Merriam-Webster defines choice as "the act of selecting or making a decision between options," it doesn’t presuppose that the act occurs in some mystical vacuum of causelessness.

I mean, are we not able to weigh options and say, "this is the sort of person I want to be" and then be defined and responsible for the choice we make?

Gary, exactly—that’s the beauty of determinism: you do weigh options, reflect on your values, and make choices. The process of saying, "This is the sort of person I want to be," and aligning your actions with that vision is fully compatible with determinism. Your ability to deliberate, consider alternatives, and pursue goals doesn’t vanish because your thoughts and decisions are caused; it’s precisely because of these causes that such processes occur.

Determinism doesn’t strip you of responsibility—it grounds it. Your sense of responsibility arises from understanding how your actions impact others and future events, shaped by your experiences, upbringing, and conscious reflection. Those choices are determined by the unique combination of factors that make you you—but they are still your choices. Recognizing this adds depth to responsibility because it ties your decisions to the intricate web of influences that define your individuality. Far from diminishing choice, determinism illuminates the mechanisms that make it meaningful.

[Gary Childress]

When Merriam-Webster defines choice as "the act of selecting or making a decision between options," it doesn’t presuppose that the act occurs in some mystical vacuum of causelessness.

I mean, are we not able to weigh options and say, "this is the sort of person I want to be" and then be defined and responsible for the choice we make?

Gary, exactly—that’s the beauty of determinism: you do weigh options, reflect on your values, and make choices. The process of saying, "This is the sort of person I want to be," and aligning your actions with that vision is fully compatible with determinism. Your ability to deliberate, consider alternatives, and pursue goals doesn’t vanish because your thoughts and decisions are caused; it’s precisely because of these causes that such processes occur.

Determinism doesn’t strip you of responsibility—it grounds it. Your sense of responsibility arises from understanding how your actions impact others and future events, shaped by your experiences, upbringing, and conscious reflection. Those choices are determined by the unique combination of factors that make you you—but they are still your choices. Recognizing this adds depth to responsibility because it ties your decisions to the intricate web of influences that define your individuality. Far from diminishing choice, determinism illuminates the mechanisms that make it meaningful.

If choices are made through "mechanistic" processes then that doesn't seem all that "beautiful" to me.