Wonkers and Israel

[vegetariantaxidermy]

No, I did not see that one, and you really should include links.

Vaaazz.
(the link) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPb45NFfI80

You really should open your eyes and mind to know the truth, as I educate you only as a courtesy to make the point, and because words that I use further remove us from the atrocity that a video would make more real.

He's a sociopath. It's like trying to explain colour to someone who has been blind from birth, or music to someone who's been completely deaf from birth. He probably justifies the gassing of Jews too, if he even believe it happened. I mean, it could all have been 'deep faked'...

[Alexis Jacobi]

Hamas’ primary interest in the Gaza civilians is to use them for anti-Israel, anti-Jewish propaganda. Using the civilians as human shields is one way to do this, which is why Hamas embedded themselves in the population, with offices in hospital basements, that sort of thing.

One note on the term *civilian* as it pertains to Israelis. Looked at in one way there are no Israelis who are purely civilians. All Israelis, including women, serve in the military unless they get exempted for one reason or another.

Again, and seen from one angle, all Israelis are citizen combatants. They did in fact conquer and occupy Palestinian lands. They did herd hundreds of thousands into refugees camps. You (or anyone) can do impressive triple backward rhetorical flips and offer breathtaking explanatory discourses on the *right* of Jews to that land but none of this actually changes the core reality.

Therefor, and at least in my own case, I never felt inclined to lie about it -- and here I speak of when I was pro-Israel. I simply said: In this world it is Power that makes choices. You see something, you take it. Then you construct your justification. There is no place on this planet that has not been conquered in the most brutal way by someone else, and then set themselves up as the *indigenous* whose land it really is.

The issue with Israel is that it is so ultra-modern, and so recent, that it is adjudicated according to *lofty standards* which were, for hundreds of thousands of years, non-considerations. It is a microcosm of so many different strains of *narrative* (not the least being the "God gave it to us" one but there are a hundred others) that it seems to become the flash-point for world-consciousness.

My advice is to remember: Jewish history is not over. It was not settled with the Jewish *return* to Israel and one other event that, among Jews and in Jewish history, has been totally unprecedented: the United States as one of the only places of sustained Jewish safety and the gaining of a foothold within a powerful state. I can tell you with complete certainty that Jews know this (because they read their own histories and have a high level of historical awareness) and that right now we are witnessing a Jewish effort to hold to the position they have achieved and -- again as we can easily observe -- determine and direct the 'grand narrative' about what all this means. The game -- very suddenly - became serious indeed.

But here is a part that must also be considered and understood. The Jewish struggle is not the world's struggle. You have to be sort of trained-up in Jewish issues and history and mind-set to either defend or condemn Jews in their historical project. The reason why England and America as so much in the forefront of pro-Israel issues is because of Christian Zionism. This must be understood. The *picture* derives from Biblical fables and the bizarrest of bizarre phantasies (and where is IC in all this?!?) If it were to fall away there could be big trouble for Israel and Jewry. For some -- trust me I have studied the issue in some depth -- Jews and the Jewish issue are seen as "a misfortune that befalls us". I am just telling you the facts.

What is now occurring in The Holy Land seems to be the beginning of what seems to be a culmination within Jewish history but also in how Jewish history, and Jewish issues, are perceived and understood. It would be so interesting to actually discuss these things but here is the problem: you and most of those who write on this forum do not even know what a Jew is. Therefore you do not really know what non-pro-Judaism, Judenhass and antisemitism actually is. Yet -- and this will sound strange -- it is you whose perception is what is being fought over. How things are decided, in a large measure, depends on you.

[Alexis Jacobi]

You really should open your eyes and mind to know the truth, as I educate you only as a courtesy to make the point, and because words that I use further remove us from the atrocity that a video would make more real.

You are self-deceiving yourself Walker. You are educating no one. And that is not your intention on any level. You have intentions but genuine education cannot be considered to be one of them.

However, I am completely open to the idea of 'becoming educated', and if real arguments, based in real knowledge and understanding are presented, by you or anyone, I am sure I would benefit as would everyone bothering to read here.

I asked you to post the video you referred to. You didn't.

But here are a couple that I suggest can be understood to be illustrative of the mind-set that allows atrocities to happen.

One

Two

[Walker]

However, I am completely open to the idea of 'becoming educated', and if real arguments, based in real knowledge and understanding are presented, by you or anyone, I am sure I would benefit as would everyone bothering to read here.

That doesn't ring true. You neglected to educate yourself as to the victim of the Hoe.

The victim was not a baby. Not a young woman with bloody pants from her recent abuse from The Freedom Fighters. Not charred bodies of young concert goers who were celebrating life. Not a terrified old woman being mocked by her captors before driven off to the tunnels, or God knows where.

The victim was wearing an IDF uniform.

*

IDF says Hamas is preventing civilians from evacuating northern Gaza
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... hern-gaza/

“We see an active effort by Hamas to block and prevent the population from going south. Hamas wants to show the world that it has casualties and dead,” IDF spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari says in a press conference.

[Walker]

I asked you to post the video you referred to. You didn't.

For me to post it, I would have to find it again. I'm not doing that for you, just because you demand it.

You can do it yourself, if you're interested in educating yourself to the truth ... which is clearly bullshit since no evidence is sufficient to prove what happened ... and here you demand evidence to prove what will happen in the future, which will also be denied.

In other words, you're more interested in The Art and Methods of Noise ... respectfully speaking.

I could less respectfully tell you what I think of that, which is where my attention is itching to go, but that wouldn't be appropriate in my humble opinion.

So I'll leave you to the mercies of VT.

[Alexis Jacobi]

That doesn't ring true. You neglected to educate yourself as to the victim of the Hoe.

I explained that I am aware and have been aware of all sorts of atrocities committed in this particular conflict as well as others. They are all of a similar character. There is no real advantage to seeing the one you refer to.

The real advantage would be to understand in what context these atrocities occur. And to that, in my view, you are closed.

And Veggie -- who seems to desire to become your ally (?) -- is completely ignorant.

[Alexis Jacobi]

For me to post it, I would have to find it again. I'm not doing that for you, just because you demand it.

To ask is different from 'to demand'. I can imagine the scene based on your description and I do not doubt that it happened.

With that said, what is it that you want? What do you want me to realize or see?

if you're interested in educating yourself to the truth

I am very interested in what you have to say about the real and proper route to the truth, to quote you. You believe that you have it. I ask that you clearly explain it. Is that unreasonable?

I could less respectfully tell you what I think of that, which is where my attention is itching to go, but that wouldn't be appropriate in my humble opinion.

Actually it would be helpful, and it would be *truthful* wouldn't it? And truth, you say, is what really interests you.

Get over false-humility. Tell me exactly what you think of what I say here and what you think of me as a person for saying it.

[Walker]

For me to post it, I would have to find it again. I'm not doing that for you, just because you demand it.

To ask is different from 'to demand'. I can imagine the scene based on your description and I do not doubt that it happened.

With that said, what is it that you want? What do you want me to realize or see?

When you use my refusal to post the war-porn video as disproof of my words, then I take it as a demand refused.

That is proof that calling what you say is an ask, is in fact a demand.

And now you're just displaying the Art of Noise with comments like that.

This Art of Noise, is a method used by Hamas, and their minions.

So either you see it or you won't admit.

I now turn you over to the tender mercies of VT ... after adding some structural substance to the thread, which you attempted to pre-empt with your biased ... whatever you're doing, to be defined depending on how deep one must look. I haven't the need, at least with you.

[Walker]

No, I did not see that one, and you really should include links.

That quote taken in the context of the discussion was the demand, as you know, and as proven by the timeline.

Also, that quote taken in isolation can be manipulated as easily as Hamas manipulates a compliant media, and apparently the world eager-to-believe world.

You are no doubt fluent in google and youtube, so look it up yourself.

I'm not your monkey.

[Walker]

He's a sociopath. It's like trying to explain colour to someone who has been blind from birth, or music to someone who's been completely deaf from birth. He probably justifies the gassing of Jews too, if he even believe it happened. I mean, it could all have been 'deep faked'...

You just may be onto something there. He seems to fit a type.

[Walker]

Get over false-humility. Tell me exactly what you think of what I say here and what you think of me as a person for saying it.

I think that in this video, you are most like Peter Sellers, and you can read as exactly into that as you must for evidence and proof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5eVu2qDISM

[Alexis Jacobi]

I could be the accordion though.

Walker, you are incapable of presenting a coherent argument for the case you seem to want to make. The *sociopath* gambit won't help you.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

I could be the accordion though.

Walker, you are incapable of presenting a coherent argument for the case you seem to want to make. The *sociopath* gambit won't help you.

I just realised that Alexis is a woman's name. I always assumed that such a pompous, self-important bore was a male. How sexist of me And yes, you are a sociopath. Get over it.

[Consul]

''Israel tells Palestinians to evacuate Gaza because they don't want to kill innocent people.
Hamas orders Palestinians to remain in place as human shields because they don't care if innocent Palestinians die.
See the difference?''

You are right!
There is no symmetry of guilt between Hamas and the Israelis, because there is a big difference between the deliberate terrorist mass-murdering of innocent people and the unintentional killing of innocent people as regrettable yet unavoidable "collateral damage" in the context of justified counterterrorist military action. If Hamas hadn't attacked the Israelis, the innocent Palestinians unintentionally killed by the Israeli army would still be alive; so Hamas are ultimately responsible for their death.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

''Israel tells Palestinians to evacuate Gaza because they don't want to kill innocent people.
Hamas orders Palestinians to remain in place as human shields because they don't care if innocent Palestinians die.
See the difference?''

You are right!
There is no symmetry of guilt between Hamas and the Israelis, because there is a big difference between the deliberate terrorist mass-murdering of innocent people and the unintentional killing of innocent people as regrettable yet unavoidable "collateral damage" in the context of justified counterterrorist military action. If Hamas hadn't attacked the Israelis, the innocent Palestinians unintentionally killed by the Israeli army would still be alive; so Hamas are ultimately responsible for their death.

I think you meant to say 'avoidable'. It's Hamas that is stopping people from leaving Gaza.