Open Letter to Woke Students

How should society be organised, if at all?

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iambiguous
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Re: Open Letter to Woke Students

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:44 pm Where are you going to take the topic right now Immanuel? The floor is yours.
How about taking it here:
iambiguous wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:39 pm Again, all of this "my way or the highway" Woke business. Conservatives pinning the label on liberals by and large.

You want Woke?

Okay, from my frame of mind, it revolves almost entirely around moral and political objectivism. And all up and down the ideological spectrum.

The various Woke "ists", left and right, embrace the dogmatic assumption that the world needs to "wake up" to the most rational manner in which to understand human interactions. The way these guys...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ideologies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... philosophy

...do.

The way the objectivists do.

It's just that those like Alexis Jacobi with his "wall of words" above are merely content to keep their own Woke dogmas up in the intellectual clouds.

But make no mistake about it: he is no less Woke than those he'll accuse of being Woke himself.

He just refuses to bring his own Woke mentality down out of the "serious philosophy" stratosphere.
Nail him for me, okay, IC? Unless, of course, he nails you first. :wink:
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Re: Open Letter to Woke Students

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Gary Childress wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 2:35 pm Is there some way LIndsay can re-educate us to do the right thing?
Lindsay's project is in defining a problem. That is, exposing the various Critical theories by examining, in great detail, their intellectual roots. It follows, then, that he recommends understanding our own intellectual roots as a first step in order to be capable of counteracting against what he clearly insists is negative in Critical Theory.

Can Lindsay 'reeducate' his readers? No. He can, and he does, expose the way Critical theory is constructed. But it seems to me that that is not quote enough. The reader must be willing to recover his own sense of what the Liberal tradition is and why it is important to preserve it.

But what is *the right thing*? Or put differently how could a person, and how might people (in a society) sort out and decide what is *right*?

I think his answer is through good-faith conversation, based in established conversational rules. That is, political debate, social conversation, exchange of views and opinions, in an environment where good-faith is established as the desired platform.
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Consul
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Re: Open Letter to Woke Students

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 7:28 pmIn point of fact, Leftism today is usually associated with Socialism and Marxism, but things like "classical liberalism" are now counted, by the more radical Left, as "conservatism," ironically.
From the socialist perspective, classical liberalism with its minarcho-capitalism (minimal law-and-order state + laissez-faire economics) is on the right side of the political spectrum, because it accepts social Darwinism. It doesn't care about social equality and social welfare, and can hence be called asocial liberalism (as opposed to modern, social liberalism). Nowadays many among the Right combine (neo-)classical economic liberalism (minarcho- or even anarcho-capitalism) with sociocultural conservatism.
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Re: Open Letter to Woke Students

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Consul wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 3:29 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 7:28 pmIn point of fact, Leftism today is usually associated with Socialism and Marxism, but things like "classical liberalism" are now counted, by the more radical Left, as "conservatism," ironically.
From the socialist perspective, classical liberalism with its minarcho-capitalism (minimal law-and-order state + laissez-faire economics) is on the right side of the political spectrum, because it accepts social Darwinism.
Well, no...classical liberalism (which I think you've mixed up with "Libertarianism") does not include any of those things, actually. And as Locke showed -- and he's a core dude in classical liberalism -- it definitely does not assume Darwinism, whether 'scientific' or social. In fact, classical liberalism has to assume Creation.

As it states in the D of I, for instance:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

It is the idea of the equal value of all human beings, being made "in the image of God," that provides the rationale for human rights. And that's why Socialism doesn't have to believe in any human rights; because for it, man's worth is derived from his utility to the collective -- or more precisely, from his utility to the agenda and purposes of what is ironically called, "The People's Party."
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Re: Open Letter to Woke Students

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:19 pm In fact, classical liberalism has to assume Creation.
Are you confusing "classical liberalism" with classical stupidity?
It is the idea of the equal value of all human beings, being made "in the image of God," that provides the rationale for human rights.
I would say it is more the fact that we are human, and thus like the idea of human rights that provides the rationale.
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Re: Open Letter to Woke Students

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:19 pm
Consul wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 3:29 pmFrom the socialist perspective, classical liberalism with its minarcho-capitalism (minimal law-and-order state + laissez-faire economics) is on the right side of the political spectrum, because it accepts social Darwinism.
Well, no...classical liberalism (which I think you've mixed up with "Libertarianism") does not include any of those things, actually. And as Locke showed -- and he's a core dude in classical liberalism -- it definitely does not assume Darwinism, whether 'scientific' or social. In fact, classical liberalism has to assume Creation.
Classical liberalism affirms negative liberty (freedom from interference by other people, the state or the church) and forms of moral, legal, and political equality; but it rejects economic or social equality:
"PERSPECTIVES ON . . . EQUALITY

*LIBERALS believe that people are ‘born’ equal in the sense that they are of equal moral worth. This implies formal equality, notably legal and political equality, as well as equality of opportunity; but social equality is likely to threaten freedom and penalize talent. Whereas classical liberals emphasize the need for strict meritocracy and economic incentives, modern liberals argue that genuine equal opportunities require relative social equality."

(Heywood, Andrew. Political Ideologies: An Introduction. 7th ed. London: Red Globe/Macmillan, 2021. p. 82)

"Classical liberalism

Classical liberalism was the earliest liberal tradition. Classical liberal ideas developed during the transition from feudalism to capitalism, and reached their high point during the early industrialization of the nineteenth century. As a result, classical liberalism has sometimes been called ‘nineteenth-century liberalism’. The cradle of classical liberalism was the UK, where the capitalist and industrial revolutions were the most advanced. Its ideas have always been more deeply rooted in Anglo-Saxon countries, particularly the UK and the USA, than in other parts of the world. However, classical liberalism is not merely a nineteenth-century form of liberalism, whose ideas are now only of historical interest. Its principles and theories, in fact, have had growing appeal from the second half of the twentieth century onwards. Though what is called neoclassical liberalism, or neoliberalism, initially had the greatest impact in the UK and the USA, its influence has spread much more broadly, in large part fuelled by the advance of globalization. Classical liberalism draws on a variety of doctrines and theories. The most important of these are:

* natural rights
* utilitarianism
* economic liberalism
* social Darwinism.

Natural rights
The natural rights theorists of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, such as John Locke and Thomas Jefferson (1743–1826), the US political philosopher and statesman, had a considerable influence on the development of liberal ideology. Modern political debate is littered with references to ‘rights’ and claims to possess ‘rights’. A right, most simply, is an entitlement to act or be treated in a particular way. Such entitlements may be either moral or legal in character. For Locke and Jefferson, rights are ‘natural’ in that they are invested in human beings by nature or God. Natural rights are now more commonly called human rights. They are, in Jefferson’s words, ‘inalienable’ because human beings are entitled to them by virtue of being human: they cannot, in that sense, be taken away. Natural rights are thus thought to establish the essential conditions for leading a truly human existence. For Locke, there were three such rights: ‘life, liberty and property’. Jefferson did not accept that property was a natural or God-given right, but rather one that had developed for human convenience. In the American Declaration of Independence he therefore described inalienable rights as those of ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’.

The idea of natural or human rights has affected liberal thought in a number of ways. For example, the weight given to such rights distinguishes authoritarian thinkers such as Thomas Hobbes from early liberals such as John Locke. As explained earlier, both Hobbes and Locke believed that government was formed through a ‘social contract’. However, Hobbes argued that only a strong government, preferably a monarchy, would be able to establish order and security in society. He was prepared to invest the king with sovereign or absolute power, rather than risk a descent into a ‘state of nature’. The citizen should therefore accept any form of government because even repressive government is better than no government at all. Locke, on the other hand, argued against arbitrary or unlimited government. Government is established in order to protect natural rights. When these are protected by the state, citizens should respect government and obey the law. However, if government violates the rights of its citizens, they in turn have the right of rebellion. Locke thus approved of the English Revolution of the seventeenth century, and applauded the establishment of a constitutional monarchy in 1688.

For Locke, moreover, the contract between state and citizen is a specific and limited one: its purpose is to protect a set of defined natural rights. As a result, Locke believed in limited government. The legitimate role of government is limited to the protection of ‘life, liberty and property’. Therefore, the realm of government should not extend beyond its three ‘minimal’ functions:

* maintaining public order and protecting property
* providing defence against external attack
* ensuring that contracts are enforced.

Other issues and responsibilities are properly the concern of private individuals. Jefferson expressed a similar sentiment a century later when he declared: ‘That government is best which governs least.’

Utilitarianism
Natural rights theories were not the only basis of early liberalism. An alternative and highly influential theory of human nature was put forward in the early nineteenth century by utilitarian thinkers, notably Jeremy Bentham and James Mill. Bentham regarded the idea of rights as ‘nonsense’ and called natural rights ‘nonsense on stilts’. In their place, he proposed what he believed to be the more scientific and objective idea that individuals are motivated by self-interest, and that these interests can be defined as the desire for pleasure, or happiness, and the wish to avoid pain, both calculated in terms of utility. The principle of utility is, furthermore, a moral principle in that it suggests that the ‘rightness’ of an action, policy or institution can be established by its tendency to promote happiness. Just as each individual can calculate what is morally good by the quantity of pleasure an action will produce, so the principle of ‘the greatest happiness for the greatest number’ can be used to establish which policies or institutions will benefit society at large.

Utilitarian ideas have had a considerable impact on classical liberalism. In particular, they have provided a moral philosophy that explains how and why individuals act as they do. The utilitarian conception of human beings as rationally self-interested creatures was adopted by later generations of liberal thinkers. Moreover, each individual is thought to be able to perceive his or her own best interests. This cannot be done on their behalf by some paternal authority, such as the state. Bentham argued that individuals act so as to gain pleasure or happiness in whatever way they choose. No one else can judge the quality or degree of their happiness. If each individual is the sole judge of what will give him or her pleasure, then the individual alone can determine what is morally right.

On the other hand, utilitarian ideas can also have illiberal implications. Bentham held that the principle of utility could be applied to society at large and not merely to individual human behaviour. Institutions and legislation can be judged by the yardstick of ‘the greatest happiness’. However, this formula has majoritarian implications, because it uses the happiness of ‘the greatest number’ as a standard of what is morally correct, and therefore allows that the interests of the majority outweigh those of the minority or the rights of the individual.

Economic liberalism
The late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries witnessed the development of classical economic theory in the work of political economists such as Adam Smith and David Ricardo (1770–1823). Smith’s The Wealth of Nations was in many respects the first economics textbook. His ideas drew heavily on liberal and rationalist assumptions about human nature and made a powerful contribution to the debate about the desirable role of government within civil society. Smith wrote at a time of wide-ranging government restrictions on economic activity. Mercantilism, the dominant economic idea of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, had encouraged governments to intervene in economic life in an attempt to encourage the export of goods and restrict imports. Smith’s economic writings were designed to attack mercantilism, arguing instead for the principle that the economy works best when it is left alone by government.

Smith thought of the economy as a market , indeed as a series of interrelated markets. He believed that the market operates according to the wishes and decisions of free individuals. Freedom within the market means freedom of choice: the ability of the businesses to choose what goods to make, the ability of workers to choose an employer, and the ability of consumers to choose what goods or services to buy. Relationships within such a market – between employers and employees, and between buyers and sellers – are therefore voluntary and contractual, made by self-interested individuals for whom pleasure is equated with the acquisition and consumption of wealth. Economic theory therefore drew on utilitarianism, in constructing the idea of ‘economic man’, the notion that human beings are essentially egoistical and bent on material acquisition.

The attraction of classical economics was that, while each individual is materially self-interested, the economy itself is thought to operate according to a set of impersonal pressures – market forces – that tend naturally to promote economic prosperity and well-being. For instance, no single producer can set the price of a commodity – prices are set by the market, by the number of goods offered for sale and the number of consumers who are willing to buy. These are the forces of supply and demand. The market is a self-regulating mechanism; it needs no guidance from outside. The market should be ‘free’ from government interference because it is managed by what Smith referred to as an ‘invisible hand’. This idea of a self-regulating market reflects the liberal belief in a naturally existing harmony among the conflicting interests within society. Smith expressed the economic version of this idea as:

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interests.

Such thinking was further developed by David Ricardo and the so-called ‘Manchester liberals’, Richard Cobden (1804–65) and John Bright (1811–89). Their ideas are often referred to as commercial liberalism . The key theme within commercial liberalism is a belief in the virtues of free trade. Free trade has economic benefits, as it allows each country to specialize in the production of goods and services that it is best suited to produce, the ones in which they have ‘comparative advantage’. However, free trade is no less important in drawing states into a web of interdependence which means that the material costs of international conflict are so great that warfare becomes virtually unthinkable. Cobden and Bright argued that free trade would draw people of different races, creeds and languages together into what Cobden described as ‘the bonds of eternal peace’.

Free market and free trade ideas became economic orthodoxy in the UK and the USA during the nineteenth century. The high point of free-market beliefs was reached with the doctrine of laissez-faire. This suggests that the state should have no economic role, but should simply leave the economy alone and allow businesspeople to act however they please. Laissez-faire ideas opposed all forms of factory legislation, including restrictions on the employment of children, limits to the number of hours worked, and any regulation of working conditions. Such economic individualism is usually based on a belief that the unrestrained pursuit of profit will ultimately lead to general benefit. Laissez-faire theories remained strong in the UK throughout much of the nineteenth century, and in the USA they were not seriously challenged until the 1930s.

However, since the late twentieth century, faith in the free market has been revived through the rise of neoliberalism. Neoliberalism was counter-revolutionary: it aimed to halt, and if possible reverse, the trend towards ‘big’ government that had dominated most Western countries, especially since 1945. Although it had its greatest initial impact in the two countries in which free-market economic principles had been most firmly established in the nineteenth century, the USA and the UK, from the 1980s onwards neoliberalism exerted a wider influence. At the heart of neoliberalism’s assault on the ‘dead hand’ of government lies a belief in market fundamentalism. In that light, neoliberalism can be seen to go beyond classical economic theory. The matter is further complicated by the fact that in the case of both ‘Reaganism’ in the USA and ‘Thatcherism’ in the UK, neoliberalism formed part of a larger, New Right ideological project that sought to foster laissez-faire economics with an essentially
conservative social philosophy.…

Social Darwinism
One of the distinctive features of classical liberalism is its attitude to poverty and social equality. An individualistic political creed will tend to explain social circumstances in terms of the talents and hard work of each individual human being. Individuals make what they want, and what they can, of their own lives. Those with ability and a willingness to work will prosper, while the incompetent or the lazy will not. This idea was memorably expressed in the title of Samuel Smiles’ book Self-Help (1859) which begins by reiterating the well-tried maxim that ‘Heaven helps those who help themselves’. Such ideas of individual responsibility were widely employed by supporters of laissezfaire in the nineteenth century. For instance, Richard Cobden advocated an improvement of the conditions of the working classes, but argued that it should come about through ‘their own efforts and self-reliance, rather than from law’. He advised them to ‘look not to Parliament, look only to yourselves’.

Ideas of individual self-reliance reached their boldest expression in Herbert Spencer’s The Man versus the State (1884). Spencer (1820–1904), the[36]UK philosopher and social theorist, developed a vigorous defence of the doctrine of laissez-faire, drawing on ideas that the UK scientist Charles Darwin (1809–82) had developed in The Origin of Species (1859). Darwin developed a theory of evolution that set out to explain the diversity of species found on Earth. He proposed that each species undergoes a series of random physical and mental changes, or mutations. Some of these changes enable a species to survive and prosper: they are pro-survival. Other mutations are less favourable and make survival more difficult or even impossible. A process of ‘natural selection’ therefore decides which species are fitted by nature to survive, and which are not. By the end of the nineteenth century, these ideas had extended beyond biology and were increasingly affecting social and political theory.

Spencer, for example, used the theory of natural selection to develop the social principle of ‘the survival of the fittest’. People who are best suited by nature to survive rise to the top, while the less fit fall to the bottom. Inequalities of wealth, social position and political power are therefore natural and inevitable, and no attempt should be made by government to interfere with them. Spencer’s US disciple, William Sumner (1840–1910), stated this principle boldly in 1884, when he asserted that ‘the drunkard in the gutter is just where he ought to be’."

(Heywood, Andrew. Political Ideologies: An Introduction. 7th ed. London: Red Globe/Macmillan, 2021. pp. 31-6)
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Re: Open Letter to Woke Students

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Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:31 pm
It is the idea of the equal value of all human beings, being made "in the image of God," that provides the rationale for human rights.
I would say it is more the fact that we are human, and thus like the idea of human rights that provides the rationale.
Well, neither historically nor logically can the bare fact that we are "humans" protect us with respect to rights.

In history, it was Locke's rationale which all "human rights codes" have quoted and depended upon, even though many of them reject his original rationale. In logic, the problem is that without Locke's original rationale, these "rights" are only alleged, and cannot be defended on any coherent basis.

To illustrate, nobody in the world denies that babies, even in utero, are "human." What else would they be: feline? canine? porcine? So we all know that genetically and biologically (and spiritually, if we're honest) these little entities are "human," and nothing else. Moreover, left alone, they will develop into full and perfect humans in the same pattern and image as our own, with equal or perhaps even more capabilities, capacities and achievements than we ourselves have. We all know that, if we know no more.

But being "human" has utterly failed to provide them any protection at all. We simply dub them "non-persons" and kill them, because we think of them as our disposable property, or as "part of a woman's body" -- both of which are very easy to refute biologically, but still suffice to rationalize their mass slaughter in the name of some other human's "choice." On the other hand, if we knew babies were not our property, but were created in the image of God and for His good purposes, we would not feel so cavalierly inclined to dispose of these "humans" for our particular purposes. If they are not ours, and they answer to God for the value of their lives, and if we answer to God for what we do with them, then we have to be very careful. That's what Locke also saw -- not just in the case of babies, but in all cases.

That's why the first thing a racist, a baby-killer or a euthanist has to do is to "depersonalize" a person whom they fully know is a human. Only then can they, with a free conscience, deprive them of their basic rights.
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Harbal
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Re: Open Letter to Woke Students

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:00 pm
Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:31 pm
It is the idea of the equal value of all human beings, being made "in the image of God," that provides the rationale for human rights.
I would say it is more the fact that we are human, and thus like the idea of human rights that provides the rationale.
Well, neither historically nor logically can the bare fact that we are "humans" protect us with respect to rights.
I'm not saying it can, I'm just saying it explains why we want them. It has absolutely nothing to do with God, who, it also turns out, cannot protect anyone with respect to human rights, btw.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Open Letter to Woke Students

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Consul wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:57 pm Classical liberalism affirms negative liberty (freedom from interference by other people, the state or the church) and forms of moral, legal, and political equality; but it rejects economic or social equality...
Not quite right.

Classical liberalism does affirm that we have a right to be left to our own choices. But this does not mean we are abandoned or rejected by society; rather, it affirms that we hold a permanent and "unalienable" place there, meaning our rights cannot be abrogated by the collective. That's why it also affirms "moral, legal and political equality," as duties.

Furthermore, classical liberalism affims equality of opportunity for all citizens, who may rise or fall socially in keeping with their particular choices, actions and contributions.

The upshot: classical liberalism is far from being merely "negative liberty." Pure "negative liberty" would be more a Libertarian value, not a classical liberal one.

What classical liberalism rejects is not "equality" but rather forcible equalization, the vacating of human rights in the absurd pursuit of forcing a state of equality of outcomes on all people, regardless of their particular choices, achievements or actions. It rejects the foolish proposition that people who achieve things should be deprived of the goods of their achievement in the interests of making non-achieving people feel "equal" with them. It recognizes the collectivist call for equalization by force as what it is: totalitarian and oppressive, not liberating and fair. And it relects that economics must be equally distributed, or social standing handed out without regard for deserving.

Seems like very good sense. It's certainly much better than the mad, collectivist jealousy of achievement and rush-to-the-lowest-common-denominator that comes by way of totalitarian equalization measures.
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Re: Open Letter to Woke Students

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Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:09 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:00 pm
Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:31 pm I would say it is more the fact that we are human, and thus like the idea of human rights that provides the rationale.
Well, neither historically nor logically can the bare fact that we are "humans" protect us with respect to rights.
I'm not saying it can, I'm just saying it explains why we want them.
Well, as the adage goes, "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride." The fact that we "want" something does not obtain it for us; nor does it rationalize why we deserve it at all.
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Re: Open Letter to Woke Students

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:11 pm
Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:09 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:00 pm
Well, neither historically nor logically can the bare fact that we are "humans" protect us with respect to rights.
I'm not saying it can, I'm just saying it explains why we want them.
Well, as the adage goes, "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride." The fact that we "want" something does not obtain it for us; nor does it rationalize why we deserve it at all.
Again, I am just saying that, as humans, it is hardly surprising that we want to have human rights. As for deserving; reality recognises no such concept, it is just another "illusion", or "figment".
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Re: Open Letter to Woke Students

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:19 pm As it states in the D of I, for instance:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
It is the idea of the equal value of all human beings, being made "in the image of God," that provides the rationale for human rights. And that's why Socialism doesn't have to believe in any human rights; because for it, man's worth is derived from his utility to the collective -- or more precisely, from his utility to the agenda and purposes of what is ironically called, "The People's Party."
Now, today, the belief, the phantasy, the Story, of that Creator cannot any longer be conceived of. If it is conceived of it is imagined more as a *shadow* or even a *ghost*.

One must face this fact. It is not going to go in the direction of resurrecting belief in an outmoded concept-picture that cannot really be believed in (and cannot be relied on as belief), but it will go the other way. People will fall away from belief in that picture.

But that does not necessarily foretell the total destruction of the possibility of belief in divinity -- on some level. But God is absent from the world's affairs. Except, of course, within and inside of believers of different sorts. But that is in a sense a different topic.

If this former God-Picture granted those rights, but that God-Picture is no longer sustained, then the dissolution of the bonds of unity between those that comprise that nation is an inevitable result. Oh but look! That is indeed what is going on right now.
Immanuel wrote: In fact, classical liberalism has to assume Creation.
It is possible that Classical Liberalism did 'assume Creation' because it was born out of a time when thinking in such terms (pictures) could not be avoided. But no part of that former belief -- in reality -- holds together any longer. It is a frayed cloth. And as I say *a ghostly presence among us*.

That is one reason why a certain critique can be brought out against Lindsay and his project. He began as an atheist and still is. But his *audience* is now composed, largely, of people who have deep investments in the former structures of belief, and desire to patch things up. What possible *identity structure* will they discover or invent? They are pushed to do so by circumstances but that does not mean it can be or will be achieved.
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Re: Open Letter to Woke Students

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Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:20 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:11 pm
Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:09 pm

I'm not saying it can, I'm just saying it explains why we want them.
Well, as the adage goes, "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride." The fact that we "want" something does not obtain it for us; nor does it rationalize why we deserve it at all.
Again, I am just saying that, as humans, it is hardly surprising that we want to have human rights. As for deserving; reality recognises no such concept, it is just another "illusion", or "figment".
Well, the version of reality we see and the one that actually exists can be two different things.

But yes, given your worldview suppositions, that would have to be your logical conclusion. That, and that there's nothing to back the rights except the raw use of power.
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Re: Open Letter to Woke Students

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Harbal wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:20 pm Again, I am just saying that, as humans, it is hardly surprising that we want to have human rights. As for deserving; reality recognises no such concept, it is just another "illusion", or "figment".
Human Rights is nearly completely a European category. In other cultures, in most other times and places, the entire construct of “rights” as we now conceive them, were not recognized. I.e. not conceived.

If you were powerful, you arrived to power through sheer force and will. If you were a sudra the knowledge of your destiny was such that it could not be questioned. You were oppressed and suffered because it was your dharma to labor and suffer.

The “varnas” [varna - (Hinduism) the name for the original social division of Vedic people into four groups, which are subdivided into thousands of jatis] were ordained by larger, metaphysical forces that might be supplicated yet not to escape one’s condition but, perhaps, to better it in another birth. You might ascend but through fulfillment of your duty, and your duty was to accept your fate.

The ‘belief in’ rights, the sense that a person is ‘entitled’ to rights originated in Europe and has spread to the whole world as so much that originated in Europe has spread.

I was born into a select class of Brahmins of the highest order. Adopted by true Vedic Hindus, my [originally Danish] great-great-grandparents were rigorously educated and given special mantras that fantastically altered even their genetic structure. This, naturally, explains my high faulting certainty that when I intone truths, metaphysical Powers of a very very high order stand as it were behind me.

And what do I ask for?! So very little. Just the enrollment fee for The Course which guarantees your liberation!
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Open Letter to Woke Students

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 9:33 pm But yes, given your worldview suppositions, that would have to be your logical conclusion. That, and that there's nothing to back the rights except the raw use of power.
Not to put aside teary heart-wringing doe-eyes and if that doesn’t work shrill screams and temper-tantrums.
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