compatibilism

[henry quirk]

Sure, but that's work. I am creating C all the time. I only have so much energy for creating and fighting and risking. I also have to deal with survival and a range of needs and wants. I can run with a flag and scream 'no compromise' but where I live I don't really have the right skill set to have the control I would like in the work world. Also given the economy here, I have less options. This means I probably challenge my employers less than I would otherwise.

The point bein' you, as fact, can and do choose your options. You make assessments about yourself, about the corner of the world you live in, about how best to plug yourself into that corner, about how not only how to adapt to that corner, but how that corner can be adapted or shaped, mebbe only subtly, to accommodate you.

Without knowing you or the particulars of your circumstance, goin' on the very little you offer above, it seems you value security (and there ain't nuthin' wrong with that) and you're made certain compromises to have that security or stability (and there ain't nuthin' wrong with that either). You find it better, for you, to operate within what is. However, as you say you lean libertarian/anarchist, so I'm bettin' you push & push back more than you let on or mebbe even realize.

Question: you say you're not a moral realist, so how do you ground yourself?

[Iwannaplato]

Sure, but that's work. I am creating C all the time. I only have so much energy for creating and fighting and risking. I also have to deal with survival and a range of needs and wants. I can run with a flag and scream 'no compromise' but where I live I don't really have the right skill set to have the control I would like in the work world. Also given the economy here, I have less options. This means I probably challenge my employers less than I would otherwise.

The point bein' you, as fact, can and do choose your options. You make assessments about yourself, about the corner of the world you live in, about how best to plug yourself into that corner, about how not only how to adapt to that corner, but how that corner can be adapted or shaped, mebbe only subtly, to accommodate you.

Sure.

Without knowing you or the particulars of your circumstance, goin' on the very little you offer above, it seems you value security (and there ain't nuthin' wrong with that) and you're made certain compromises to have that security or stability (and there ain't nuthin' wrong with that either). You find it better, for you, to operate within what is. However, as you say you lean libertarian/anarchist, so I'm bettin' you push & push back more than you let on or mebbe even realize.

Sure.

Question: you say you're not a moral realist, so how do you ground yourself?

There are people I value. There are things I value (love, hate, like, prefer....) I have goals.

I don't know if those answers fit, 'ground' means so many different things to different people.

[henry quirk]

Question: you say you're not a moral realist, so how do you ground yourself?

IWP, you said...

There are people I value. There are things I value (love, hate, like, prefer....) I have goals.

I don't know if those answers fit, 'ground' means so many different things to different people.

In terms of right & wrong: what's your measure?

For example: is slavery (layin' claim to people & treating & using them as property & commodity) wrong? If so: why?

[Iwannaplato]

Question: you say you're not a moral realist, so how do you ground yourself?

IWP, you said...

There are people I value. There are things I value (love, hate, like, prefer....) I have goals.

I don't know if those answers fit, 'ground' means so many different things to different people.

In terms of right & wrong: what's your measure?

For example: is slavery (layin' claim to people & treating & using them as property & commodity) wrong? If so: why?

I hate slavery.

[henry quirk]

I hate slavery.

Why?

[BigMike]

I hate slavery.

Why?

Would you like to be used and treated like a commodity or property? I think the answer is self evident.

[henry quirk]

Would you like to be used and treated like a commodity or property? I think the answer is self evident.

No, of course not. But the question for IWP, as he is not a moral realist, is: what is his measure for right & wrong.

He hates slavery. So do I. I, however, beyond personal distaste, can tell you why slavery is wrong.

Can you? Can IWP?

[Iwannaplato]

I hate slavery.

Why?

Empathy for other humans, hatred of people who think others are merely in existence for their use (which there is a still a lot of left in the world)

[BigMike]

Would you like to be used and treated like a commodity or property? I think the answer is self evident.

No, of course not. But the question for IWP, as he is not a moral realist, is: what is his measure for right & wrong.

He hates slavery. So do I. I, however, beyond personal distaste, can tell you why slavery is wrong.

Can you? Can IWP?

I don't subscribe to the moral realism view. In point of fact, I don't subscribe to the idea that there are any moral absolutes. I just believe that moral conduct is a rational choice that serves my own best interests. My personal choice is to help individuals who are unable to provide for their own basic needs, provided that doing so does not put my own basic needs at risk.

For example, I've taken in a breast cancer patient who is homeless and from Romania. For more than 5 years, I have helped her get a temporary residence permit in my country, offered free lodging, paid for all of her expenses, including her medical bills, and I will do so until she is cancer-free. I decide to do it since I am in a good financial position that allows me to.

[iambiguous]

Click.

On and on they go...still go...up in the clouds of abstraction.

You don't have to. Ask yourself: is my life (my being, my existence) mine? Is my liberty (my choices, my direction in the world) mine? Is my property (what I create, what I fairly transact for, my self) mine?

We use language quite differently. Property sure, I can use 'mine' happily with. My being and my existence, well I'm happy to have those possessive adjectives before them.....Though somehow say their are 'mine' sound strange to me. Why the possessive adjectives don't bother me and the possessive pronoun would, I don't know. I just find that sentence odd.

As though how they construe the definition and the meaning of these words has little or nothing to do with how I construe them in the OP here: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529

And let's encourage them to bring the discussion around to an issue like abortion and guns.

As for slavery, again, historically, there were any number of contexts in which it was rationalized by any number of people given a free will world. And today there's the question of the "wage slave". The workers aren't owned de jure but de facto many might just as well be. As long as they don't own the means of productions they become "for all practical purposes" little more than interchangeable, expendable parts.

[henry quirk]

I hate slavery.

Why?

Empathy for other humans, hatred of people who think others are merely in existence for their use (which there is a still a lot of left in the world)

Well, you're tellin' my why you hate slavery, but not why it's wrong.

There are an estimated 40 million women, children, and men slaved right now. Obviously, the slavers don't share your distaste.

If you could attempt to persuade a slaver to stop, what would you say?
I understand it probably wouldn't make a difference...I'm interested in your argument, not its success

[henry quirk]

I don't subscribe to the moral realism view.

I know...

If people don't honor the social contract, why should I? In that case I would kill, steal, and leash like everybody else.

[BigMike]

I don't subscribe to the moral realism view.

I know...

If people don't honor the social contract, why should I? In that case I would kill, steal, and leash like everybody else.

As I said: "If people don't honor the social contract, why should I?" Do you seriously believe that I would sit around and wait for other people to kill me? It's possible that you simply aren't aware of the key distinctions between the natural state and a social contract.

[henry quirk]

I don't subscribe to the moral realism view.

I know...

If people don't honor the social contract, why should I? In that case I would kill, steal, and leash like everybody else.

As I said: "If people don't honor the social contract, why should I?" Do you seriously believe that I would sit around and wait for other people to kill me? It's possible that you simply aren't aware of the key distinctions between the natural state and a social contract.

You said: I would kill, steal, and leash like everybody else. That's a bit beyond killin' in self-defense.

As a moral realist (I believe a man has a natural, inalienable right to his, and no one else's, life liberty, and property): I'd kill you in a sec if you came around lookin' to kill me, rob me, or leash me. I would end you today and in an apocalyptic tomorrow. It would be self-defense.

You, as an amoralist: would kill, steal, and leash like everybody else.

You see the difference, yeah?

[henry quirk]

Mike,

Do you steal or kill now?