Protagoras vs Socrates

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Nick_A
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Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Post by Nick_A »

V A
It is not to avoid experiencing the question of mortality which is inevitable and unavoidable.
The question and seeking of meaning is driven by that cognitive dissonance arising from

• 1. the inevitable and unavoidable mortality and

2. the inescapable terrible pain and sufferings because man is endowed with an unavoidable self-awareness
, thus aware of 1.

These two unavoidabilities [cognitive dissonance] drive man to seek meaning to reconcile the logically "irreconcilable" 1 and 2.

The understand of "meaning" would then be a consolation to the cognitive dissonance.

It is not to avoid experiencing the question of mortality which is inevitable and unavoidable.
The question and seeking of meaning is driven by that cognitive dissonance arising from

• 1. the inevitable and unavoidable mortality and

2. the inescapable terrible pain and sufferings because man is endowed with an unavoidable self-awareness
, thus aware of 1.

These two unavoidabilities [cognitive dissonance] drive man to seek meaning to reconcile the logically "irreconcilable" 1 and 2.

The understand of "meaning" would then be a consolation to the cognitive dissonance.

Fortunately for man, the existence of a God [illusory] reified as real provide a pseudo-meaning to the cognitive dissonance that provided immediate relief.

Fortunately for man, the existence of a God [illusory] reified as real provide a pseudo-meaning to the cognitive dissonance that provided immediate relief.
It seems that our essential place of disagreement concerns if noesis is a higher form of intellect. First let me review what I mean by noesis:

http://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/plato1.htm

• noesis (immediate intuition, apprehension, or mental 'seeing' of principles)
• dianoia (discursive thought)
• pistis (belief or confidence)
• eikasia (delusion or sheer conjecture)


• As Being is to becoming, so Knowledge is to Opinion.
• As Knowledge is to Opinion, so noesis is to pistis,
• And dianoia is to eikasia,
• And (though Plato does not say this explicitly, but rather lets us see it ourselves) noesis is to dianoia.
Salvation from Egoism by Higher Knowledge

Now let's try to put the pieces together. To begin, we are probably on solid ground to suggest that the Divided Line is principally concerned with moral epistemology: how do we know what to do (i.e., what is best for us), both in general and at any given moment? Upon the answer to this eminently practical question all our well-being depends. It is true that Plato includes mathematical examples in the Divided Line. But this doesn't mean he's spliced in an investigation of mathematical or scientific epistemology amidst his great work on personal ethics. It's more plausible to see these as examples drawn from a fairly explicit domain (mathematics) to illustrate corresponding aspects of a less clear one (moral experience).

If we accept this view then what Plato seems to be saying in the Divided Line is that there is a special form of knowledge, noesis, which is a much better basis for guiding our thoughts and actions than other, lesser forms of knowledge. It takes little sophistication to recognize that noesis is better than the more degenerate kinds of 'knowing' — i.e., the eikasia and pistis displayed by prisoners of the Cave. What is far more subtle and interesting, and what is therefore perhaps more important for Plato here, is the contrast between dianoia, ordinary discursive ratiocination, and noesis.

This distinction is vital. While dianoia thinking certainly has benefits, we have a distinct tendency to over-rely on it and to forget its limitations. The weakness of dianoia is that it must begin by taking as true unproven assumptions. We are, in effect, presupposing a model of reality before we begin our deliberations. But any model, be it logical, geometrical, or moral, is only imperfect. Its conclusions may be, and frequently are, wrong. Our selection of assumptions, moreover, is bound to be influenced by our passions and prejudices. Our dianoia thinking tends to reflect the values and prejudices of whatever subpersonality is currently activated. We then see reality partly — through a glass darkly. Moreover, the principle of cognitive dissonance may cause us to ignore, distort, or rationalize away any data which do not fit our preconceived model.

In contrast, noesis presupposes a soul that has turned away from specific selfish concerns to seek the Good itself. With this change in mental orientation — this Pauline metanoia or Plotinian epistrophe — we may then begin to see things more truly, and in their proper relation to one another. We may better think, judge — and therefore act — according to natural law and right reason. We will consequently be more harmonized with the external world as well as within ourselves.

Noesis (Peters, 1967, 121ff.) is the mental power or faculty associated with an immediate apprehension of first principles (Forms) of mathematics, logic, morals, religion, and perhaps other things. So understood, noesis, when concerned with moral Forms, is very close to, if not the same thing as what is traditionally called Conscience. By Conscience we mean not a Freudian super-ego formed by the internalization of arbitrary social conventions, but an innate sense, something divine, and something perhaps closely associated with consciousness itself (let us not forget that in some languages, such as French, the same word denotes both consciousness and Conscience.) We need not commit ourselves to a particular religious creed to say that this moral noetic sense is a phenomenological reality — a clarifying, integrating, joyful, loving faculty of human consciousness.

The characteristic human flaw of turning away from the Good — and instead relying on our own fallible substitutes for divine Wisdom — is hubris, the fundamental sin against which Greek philosophy and literature so forcefully and persistently warns us. This great concern of Homer, Hesiod, and the tragic poets is also Plato's.
Animal Man is a creature under the Sun of Plato’s divided line so cannot be the measure of all things which includes everything under the sun and above the sun. Of course if you deny noesis and this higher form of knowledge and limits yourself to the senses you experience under the sun, I’d like to understand why.
Nick_A
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Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Post by Nick_A »

Eod
The cave is an allegory created by man, even your stance is an interpretation made through man. You contradict yourself.
Was the allegory of the cave created by Man or given to Man from higher consciousness?. Was its purpose to learn something new or rather as an aid to help Man remember what had been forgotten?
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:43 pm Eod
The cave is an allegory created by man, even your stance is an interpretation made through man. You contradict yourself.
Was the allegory of the cave created by Man or given to Man from higher consciousness?. Was its purpose to learn something new or rather as an aid to help Man remember what had been forgotten?
The same question can apply to all further interpretations, thus you are stuck in the revolving loop of interpreting which interpretations are legitimate and which are not.
Nick_A
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Post by Nick_A »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:27 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:43 pm Eod
The cave is an allegory created by man, even your stance is an interpretation made through man. You contradict yourself.
Was the allegory of the cave created by Man or given to Man from higher consciousness?. Was its purpose to learn something new or rather as an aid to help Man remember what had been forgotten?
The same question can apply to all further interpretations, thus you are stuck in the revolving loop of interpreting which interpretations are legitimate and which are not.
True, but the question remains: can a person through noesis experience the truths or forms which create opinions or interpretations? If there is no source, then there are no forms and noesis is just imagination. The chaotic creature called Man must be the measure of all things. Not very logical
Eodnhoj7
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Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:51 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:27 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:43 pm Eod



Was the allegory of the cave created by Man or given to Man from higher consciousness?. Was its purpose to learn something new or rather as an aid to help Man remember what had been forgotten?
The same question can apply to all further interpretations, thus you are stuck in the revolving loop of interpreting which interpretations are legitimate and which are not.
True, but the question remains: can a person through noesis experience the truths or forms which create opinions or interpretations? If there is no source, then there are no forms and noesis is just imagination. The chaotic creature called Man must be the measure of all things. Not very logical
Man is the constant form.

The consistency of this form is the intellect.

The intellect reflects upon forms, this reflection is mirroring.

This mirroring begins with assuming, assumption is formless in nature.

This formless nature to the intellect begins with the point.

The dot is the beginning and end or awareness, this beginning and end is mediated by forms which is the point dividing.

Awareness is the multiplication/division, as individuation, of points.

Man is the mediator of being given his intellect is grounded in point space.
Nick_A
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Post by Nick_A »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:36 am
Nick_A wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:51 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:27 pm

The same question can apply to all further interpretations, thus you are stuck in the revolving loop of interpreting which interpretations are legitimate and which are not.
True, but the question remains: can a person through noesis experience the truths or forms which create opinions or interpretations? If there is no source, then there are no forms and noesis is just imagination. The chaotic creature called Man must be the measure of all things. Not very logical
Man is the constant form.

The consistency of this form is the intellect.

The intellect reflects upon forms, this reflection is mirroring.

This mirroring begins with assuming, assumption is formless in nature.

This formless nature to the intellect begins with the point.

The dot is the beginning and end or awareness, this beginning and end is mediated by forms which is the point dividing.

Awareness is the multiplication/division, as individuation, of points.

Man is the mediator of being given his intellect is grounded in point space.
Does this mean that IYO the intellect is the constant form of Man? Is the intellect having nothing better to do than arguing about Trump, the seat of the the soul of Man?
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 10708
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:42 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:36 am
Nick_A wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:51 pm

True, but the question remains: can a person through noesis experience the truths or forms which create opinions or interpretations? If there is no source, then there are no forms and noesis is just imagination. The chaotic creature called Man must be the measure of all things. Not very logical
Man is the constant form.

The consistency of this form is the intellect.

The intellect reflects upon forms, this reflection is mirroring.

This mirroring begins with assuming, assumption is formless in nature.

This formless nature to the intellect begins with the point.

The dot is the beginning and end or awareness, this beginning and end is mediated by forms which is the point dividing.

Awareness is the multiplication/division, as individuation, of points.

Man is the mediator of being given his intellect is grounded in point space.
Does this mean that IYO the intellect is the constant form of Man? Is the intellect having nothing better to do than arguing about Trump, the seat of the the soul of Man?
Can you make this statement without being a man?
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Post by Nick_A »

Eod
Does this mean that IYO the intellect is the constant form of Man? Is the intellect having nothing better to do than arguing about Trump, the seat of the the soul of Man?

Can you make this statement without being a man?
That statement doesn't require having a soul. What makes you think animal Man has a soul providing inner unity? Conscious or evolved Man would have a soul
Nick_A
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Post by Nick_A »

“Man is the only creature who refuses to be what he is.”
― Albert Camus
It is true. We cannot be ourselves. We create a personality that does it for us. Yet it was argued by Protagoras that this Man, hidden behind our personalities, "is the measure of all things."

“Give me beauty in the inward soul; may the outward and the inward man be at one.” ~ Socrates

Maybe it is only the inner man who can evolve to be a Son of God. The outer man follows the cycles of dust to dust.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:43 pm Man as the measure of all things necessitates all being as submitting to a singular source, thus all is connected through man as the singular source.
Rhetoric again, why do you bring in the term 'submitting'.

Reality is deterministic [not in the absolute sense], thus man is part and parcel of reality.

The point is whatever is to be realized and asserted about reality [the only way] inevitably involved man.
This is what is meant by "man is the measure of all thing" thus to exclude there is anything independent of man within reality which man is part and parcel thereof.

The alternative view to the above enable man to speculate on an independent world, seek salvation in an independent heaven via an entity, i.e. God which is a catalyst to all theistic related terrible evil and violence.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 15722
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:34 pm
It is not to avoid experiencing the question of mortality which is inevitable and unavoidable.
The question and seeking of meaning is driven by that cognitive dissonance arising from
  • 1. the inevitable and unavoidable mortality and

    2. the inescapable terrible pain and sufferings because man is endowed with an unavoidable self-awareness
    , thus aware of 1.
These two unavoidabilities [cognitive dissonance] drive man to seek meaning to reconcile the logically "irreconcilable" 1 and 2.

The understand of "meaning" would then be a consolation to the cognitive dissonance.

It is not to avoid experiencing the question of mortality which is inevitable and unavoidable.
The question and seeking of meaning is driven by that cognitive dissonance arising from

• 1. the inevitable and unavoidable mortality and

2. the inescapable terrible pain and sufferings because man is endowed with an unavoidable self-awareness
, thus aware of 1.

These two unavoidabilities [cognitive dissonance] drive man to seek meaning to reconcile the logically "irreconcilable" 1 and 2.

The understand of "meaning" would then be a consolation to the cognitive dissonance.

Fortunately for man, the existence of a God [illusory] reified as real provide a pseudo-meaning to the cognitive dissonance that provided immediate relief.

Fortunately for man, the existence of a God [illusory] reified as real provide a pseudo-meaning to the cognitive dissonance that provided immediate relief.
It seems that our essential place of disagreement concerns if noesis is a higher form of intellect. First let me review what I mean by noesis:

http://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/plato1.htm

• noesis (immediate intuition, apprehension, or mental 'seeing' of principles)
• dianoia (discursive thought)
• pistis (belief or confidence)
• eikasia (delusion or sheer conjecture)

• As Being is to becoming, so Knowledge is to Opinion.
• As Knowledge is to Opinion, so noesis is to pistis,
• And dianoia is to eikasia,
• And (though Plato does not say this explicitly, but rather lets us see it ourselves) noesis is to dianoia.
I presented the above existential crisis and cognitive dissonance which is very rational and realistic.
It seem you are in denial of the above reality within yourself and all humans and thus ignoring the various ways how humans are entrapped in and trying to resolve the cognitive dissonances.

Due to the above which is inherent, intrinsic and unavoidable human nature, humans utilize whatever ability, intellect, wisdom, philosophy, and etc. to deal with the existential crisis.
One [among many] of the available resource available to man is the intellect.

The problem with your use of so-called higher intellect 'noesis' is diverting you away from the reality and proximate root causes of the problem. What you are doing is speculating more and more away from reality with groundless inferences by your intellect.

What you need is not purely intellect [lower or higher form] but philosophy-proper with its full range of critical thinking with wisdom and effective practices.

My approach is not mere intellectualizing or need a higher form of intellectualizing but rather recognizing the reality of the problem and resolving the problem realistically and effectively.
Btw, I am not speculating, Buddhism [and others of the likes] has been adopting this philosophical [proper] approach since more than 2500 years ago.

Animal Man is a creature under the Sun of Plato’s divided line so cannot be the measure of all things which includes everything under the sun and above the sun. Of course if you deny noesis and this higher form of knowledge and limits yourself to the senses you experience under the sun, I’d like to understand why.
Why are you so ignorant is thinking I am limiting my knowledge of reality ONLY to the senses?

Note I mentioned the adoption of "philosophy-proper" with its full range of critical thinking with wisdom and all other tools that generate principles and practices [not mere intellectualizing]. 'Noesis' may be included herein but it is only a subset to the whole.

Why I adopt my current view, note my point in the above post;
  • The point is whatever is to be realized and asserted about reality [the only way] inevitably involved man.
    This is what is meant by "man is the measure of all thing" thus to exclude there is anything independent of man within reality which man is part and parcel thereof.

    The alternative view to the above enable man to speculate on an independent world, seek salvation in an independent heaven via an entity, i.e. God which is a catalyst to all theistic related terrible evil and violence.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:40 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:43 pm Man as the measure of all things necessitates all being as submitting to a singular source, thus all is connected through man as the singular source.
Rhetoric again, why do you bring in the term 'submitting'.

Reality is deterministic [not in the absolute sense], thus man is part and parcel of reality.

The point is whatever is to be realized and asserted about reality [the only way] inevitably involved man.
This is what is meant by "man is the measure of all thing" thus to exclude there is anything independent of man within reality which man is part and parcel thereof.

The alternative view to the above enable man to speculate on an independent world, seek salvation in an independent heaven via an entity, i.e. God which is a catalyst to all theistic related terrible evil and violence.
And this determinism is an interpretation of one part relating to another thus necessitating man as measure given interpretation occurs through man. A deterministic universe is the interpretation of man and to argue man is a part of it is to argue existence as a singular source. This singular source of existences exists through interpretation as interpretation, as definition is existence, thus necessitating man as the singular source.

Heaven and Hell are both emergent phenomenon of reality connected by the emergent interpretations of reality.
Eodnhoj7
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Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:57 am Eod
Does this mean that IYO the intellect is the constant form of Man? Is the intellect having nothing better to do than arguing about Trump, the seat of the the soul of Man?

Can you make this statement without being a man?
That statement doesn't require having a soul. What makes you think animal Man has a soul providing inner unity? Conscious or evolved Man would have a soul
The statement requires self reflection of man's state as man thus a soul is required. The soul is self reflective as self sustaining through the source which is self reflective as self sustaining.
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Post by Nick_A »

V A
It is not to avoid experiencing the question of mortality which is inevitable and unavoidable.
The question and seeking of meaning is driven by that cognitive dissonance arising from

• 1. the inevitable and unavoidable mortality and

2. the inescapable terrible pain and sufferings because man is endowed with an unavoidable self-awareness
, thus aware of 1.

These two unavoidabilities [cognitive dissonance] drive man to seek meaning to reconcile the logically "irreconcilable" 1 and 2.

The understand of "meaning" would then be a consolation to the cognitive dissonance.
OK so humanity experiencing this question of mortality in the presence of certain death seeks the meaning of life and if Man can avoid physical death.

How can we approach the question? Is there a greater reality that determines our life and death, a rationaal conscious purpose for life created by a conscious source. Does critical thinking help understanding this question? From the previously posted article on Plato’s divided line:
If we accept this view then what Plato seems to be saying in the Divided Line is that there is a special form of knowledge, noesis, which is a much better basis for guiding our thoughts and actions than other, lesser forms of knowledge. It takes little sophistication to recognize that noesis is better than the more degenerate kinds of 'knowing' — i.e., the eikasia and pistis displayed by prisoners of the Cave. What is far more subtle and interesting, and what is therefore perhaps more important for Plato here, is the contrast between dianoia, ordinary discursive ratiocination, and noesis.

This distinction is vital. While dianoia thinking certainly has benefits, we have a distinct tendency to over-rely on it and to forget its limitations. The weakness of dianoia is that it must begin by taking as true unproven assumptions. We are, in effect, presupposing a model of reality before we begin our deliberations. But any model, be it logical, geometrical, or moral, is only imperfect. Its conclusions may be, and frequently are, wrong. Our selection of assumptions, moreover, is bound to be influenced by our passions and prejudices. Our dianoia thinking tends to reflect the values and prejudices of whatever subpersonality is currently activated. We then see reality partly — through a glass darkly. Moreover, the principle of cognitive dissonance may cause us to ignore, distort, or rationalize away any data which do not fit our preconceived model.
The idea here is that we do not understand the limits of critical thinking. We don’t understand the necessity for an objective foundation for critical thinking.

The weakness of dianoia is that it must begin by taking as true unproven assumptions. We are, in effect, presupposing a model of reality before we begin our deliberations. It is cognitive dissonance you wrote of as the cause of the loss of objective foundatioin

The value of critical thing as pertains to the essential question of meaning is to allow us to experience our contradictions.
“When a contradiction is impossible to resolve except by a lie, then we know that it is really a door.” Simone Weil
The door opens to the experience of noesis: The (immediate intuition, apprehension, or mental 'seeing' of principles)

Socratic discussion allows us to welcome contradictions not to avoid them but to experience them as we welcome the experience of noesis through conscious contemplation. What good is saying that Man is the measure of all things if we don’t know what Man is; we haven’t experienced ourselves through conscious impartial efforts to “know thyself.”
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 10708
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:06 pm V A
It is not to avoid experiencing the question of mortality which is inevitable and unavoidable.
The question and seeking of meaning is driven by that cognitive dissonance arising from

• 1. the inevitable and unavoidable mortality and

2. the inescapable terrible pain and sufferings because man is endowed with an unavoidable self-awareness
, thus aware of 1.

These two unavoidabilities [cognitive dissonance] drive man to seek meaning to reconcile the logically "irreconcilable" 1 and 2.

The understand of "meaning" would then be a consolation to the cognitive dissonance.
OK so humanity experiencing this question of mortality in the presence of certain death seeks the meaning of life and if Man can avoid physical death.

How can we approach the question? Is there a greater reality that determines our life and death, a rationaal conscious purpose for life created by a conscious source. Does critical thinking help understanding this question? From the previously posted article on Plato’s divided line:
If we accept this view then what Plato seems to be saying in the Divided Line is that there is a special form of knowledge, noesis, which is a much better basis for guiding our thoughts and actions than other, lesser forms of knowledge. It takes little sophistication to recognize that noesis is better than the more degenerate kinds of 'knowing' — i.e., the eikasia and pistis displayed by prisoners of the Cave. What is far more subtle and interesting, and what is therefore perhaps more important for Plato here, is the contrast between dianoia, ordinary discursive ratiocination, and noesis.

This distinction is vital. While dianoia thinking certainly has benefits, we have a distinct tendency to over-rely on it and to forget its limitations. The weakness of dianoia is that it must begin by taking as true unproven assumptions. We are, in effect, presupposing a model of reality before we begin our deliberations. But any model, be it logical, geometrical, or moral, is only imperfect. Its conclusions may be, and frequently are, wrong. Our selection of assumptions, moreover, is bound to be influenced by our passions and prejudices. Our dianoia thinking tends to reflect the values and prejudices of whatever subpersonality is currently activated. We then see reality partly — through a glass darkly. Moreover, the principle of cognitive dissonance may cause us to ignore, distort, or rationalize away any data which do not fit our preconceived model.
The idea here is that we do not understand the limits of critical thinking. We don’t understand the necessity for an objective foundation for critical thinking.

The weakness of dianoia is that it must begin by taking as true unproven assumptions. We are, in effect, presupposing a model of reality before we begin our deliberations. It is cognitive dissonance you wrote of as the cause of the loss of objective foundatioin

The value of critical thing as pertains to the essential question of meaning is to allow us to experience our contradictions.
“When a contradiction is impossible to resolve except by a lie, then we know that it is really a door.” Simone Weil
The door opens to the experience of noesis: The (immediate intuition, apprehension, or mental 'seeing' of principles)

Socratic discussion allows us to welcome contradictions not to avoid them but to experience them as we welcome the experience of noesis through conscious contemplation. What good is saying that Man is the measure of all things if we don’t know what Man is; we haven’t experienced ourselves through conscious impartial efforts to “know thyself.”
Man is that which reflects.
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