Reality is an Emergence

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Veritas Aequitas
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Reality is an Emergence

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaofyuCXZ_0

Image

The above video demo how an empty hollow mask of Einstein when turned slowly popped out as a 3D convex face.
So how does a hollow mask suddenly became 3D.
This appear to be some kind of deception going on, the brain/mind is being deceived to perceive a 3D [convex] when in reality is something concave [hollow].
Actually this is a demo of emergence.
The 3D [convex] emerges upon the existing conditions of the human person up to this phase of human evolution and this deception is effected on all normal human beings.

My proposition is this;
The mechanism of emergence as with the above is the same when a human being perceived a supposedly real 3D apple on the table. The person can pick such an emerged apple and eat it.
This is applicable to all of reality = all-there-is.
Whatever is all-there-is is an emergent reality like how the convex 3D mask emerged from a hollow concave mask relative to the human conception scheme.

I assert the mechanism of emergence in both cases are the same, it is only the property of the things emerged are different.
This is why it is easy to explain the emergence of the mask by investigating the physical mask to see the two sides, i.e. the convex and the concave side of the mask.

As with everything else of reality as an emergence upon human conditions, it is not that easy to explain but it is possible.
For example the reality of all ordinary "solid" objects are actually 99.99% empty space but within ordinary perception they are solid, i.e. which is merely an emergent thing.
From the quarks perspective what is solid [as emerged] is 99.99% space of particles and quarks.

Where we can feel the solidness of a hard piece of ice-cube within normal perception and experience, at another level of reality, that same ice-cube is 99.99% empty space with Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms interacting with each other. At the level of energy, the same ice-cube is merely a bundle of 'soft' energy.

Do you agree,
-reality as all-there-is is an emergent upon the current human conditions just like the emergent of how the emergent 3D concave Einstein mask from a hollow concave mask.
TheVisionofEr
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Re: Reality is an Emergence

Post by TheVisionofEr »

So how does a hollow mask suddenly became 3D.
If humans know it is not 3d it means this is an optical error judged against the standard. The 3d which is known to humans.

On your analogy there is no standard from which to judge the emergence. Since that implies human access to the pre-emerged "real reality." At best you would have a dogmatic claim about a "real reality."
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bahman
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Re: Reality is an Emergence

Post by bahman »

The emergence of a new property such as experience is magic which is not possible within materialism. We know the properties of matter, mass, charge, etc. but not experience. Matter in raw form is dead in materialism.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Reality is an Emergence

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

TheVisionofEr wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:26 pm
So how does a hollow mask suddenly became 3D.
If humans know it is not 3d it means this is an optical error judged against the standard. The 3d which is known to humans.
The illusion is not an optical or perceptive error like one mistaking a rope-in-the-shade for a rope.
Point is this case, the illusion cannot be corrected even with the knowledge what is seen as 3D convex is actually a hollow concave side of the mask.
There is no way, one can see the actual hollow-ness, i.e. the mind just refuse to see reality.
On your analogy there is no standard from which to judge the emergence. Since that implies human access to the pre-emerged "real reality."
At best you would have a dogmatic claim about a "real reality."
Why not?
I have demonstrated, the real solid ice cube at a more refined level of reality is not solid but 99% empty space.
Thus in a way, the real-solid-ice-cube is an emergence relative to a person's condition and thus not something that is really-real.

I am not claiming there is an absolute real reality.
You are right, at best, there is only a dogmatic claim about a "real reality" for those who make the claim there is an independent absolute real reality.

My claim is, real reality is at best an emergence and 'relatively-real-reality.'
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Reality is an Emergence

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

bahman wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:00 pm The emergence of a new property such as experience is magic which is not possible within materialism. We know the properties of matter, mass, charge, etc. but not experience. Matter in raw form is dead in materialism.
What is experienced and justified is really real.
Do you agree with this.

Such real experiences can be proven and justified empirically.
Such experience is an emergence out of the human conditions and its environment like how the 3D convex mask emerge from what is actually a hollow-concave mask.
Do you agree with this?

Your point re emergence of a new property via materialism is irrelevant.
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bahman
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Re: Reality is an Emergence

Post by bahman »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:06 am
bahman wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:00 pm The emergence of a new property such as experience is magic which is not possible within materialism. We know the properties of matter, mass, charge, etc. but not experience. Matter in raw form is dead in materialism.
What is experienced and justified is really real.
Do you agree with this.
What is experienced, matter, is an illusion since does not persist during the change.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:06 am Such real experiences can be proven and justified empirically.
Yes.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:06 am Such experience is an emergence out of the human conditions and its environment like how the 3D convex mask emerge from what is actually a hollow-concave mask.
Do you agree with this?
Brain has the duty to compile information that receives and delivers it to mind. That is mind which experiences.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:06 am Your point re emergence of a new property via materialism is irrelevant.
It is relevant. Matter affects matter because it has properties. No properties, no effects.
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Lacewing
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Re: Reality is an Emergence

Post by Lacewing »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:43 am Where we can feel the solidness of a hard piece of ice-cube within normal perception and experience, at another level of reality, that same ice-cube is 99.99% empty space with Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms interacting with each other. At the level of energy, the same ice-cube is merely a bundle of 'soft' energy.
This example of "empty space"/energy -- rather than something solid/physical/formed/specific -- is a level of perception that can apply to ALL... humans, everything of Earth, our solar system, the Universe beyond, our thoughts of gods, heaven/hell, etc. Nothing really solid... it's ALL energy. And energy doesn't need, nor is limited, to a specific path, form, or reality. Yes?

So why do we superimpose solid/physical/formed/specific ideas onto something we claim as ultimate reality/truth?
TheVisionofEr
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Re: Reality is an Emergence

Post by TheVisionofEr »

Point is this case, the illusion cannot be corrected even with the knowledge what is seen as 3D convex is actually a hollow concave side of the mask.
Interesting. OK, but we can touch it. And so there is a standard for making the distinction.

Why not?
I have demonstrated, the real solid ice cube at a more refined level of reality is not solid but 99% empty space.
I don’t follow this part of the reasoning.

It seems as though we are in the position of only having the eyes, but not the hands, in analogy to the first part. If we only have the eyes, we never have an illusion. There is no "concave" standard to compare it to.
Atla
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Re: Reality is an Emergence

Post by Atla »

'We experience the universe through a model in the head, therefore the universe depends on the model in the head.'

Goddammit..
tapaticmadness
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Re: Reality is an Emergence

Post by tapaticmadness »

Atla wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:27 pm 'We experience the universe through a model in the head, therefore the universe depends on the model in the head.'

Goddammit..
OMG, do you mean to tell me that this world I see and which I thought was real is no more than an unreal, image in my head? How about my head? Is that also just an image in my head? How depressing and actually more than I can think!!!
Atla
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Re: Reality is an Emergence

Post by Atla »

tapaticmadness wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:23 am
Atla wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:27 pm 'We experience the universe through a model in the head, therefore the universe depends on the model in the head.'

Goddammit..
OMG, do you mean to tell me that this world I see and which I thought was real is no more than an unreal, image in my head? How about my head? Is that also just an image in my head? How depressing and actually more than I can think!!!
Umm it was sarcasm, Veritas for some reason fully believes that the universe depends on the model in the head.

But don't tell me that you are a direct realist? Hello, indirect realism was found to be correct long ago? There is a model of the outside world in your head, and that's what you directly experience. The model is technically a part of the world it's modeling.
tapaticmadness
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Re: Reality is an Emergence

Post by tapaticmadness »

Atla wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:53 am
Umm it was sarcasm, Veritas for some reason fully believes that the universe depends on the model in the head.

But don't tell me that you are a direct realist? Hello, indirect realism was found to be correct long ago? There is a model of the outside world in your head, and that's what you directly experience. The model is technically a part of the world it's modeling.
Hang onto you chair. Here goes. YES, I am a DIRECT REALIST!!! Indirect realism has not been found to be correct. There may be a model of reality in my brain, but it is not that that I directly experience. When I look at the people outside my window, I am not looking at a model in my brain. I am looking at the people outside my window. I would say that I think you are mad, but I do rather have some respect for madness. I will just say that your philosophy is silly.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Reality is an Emergence

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

bahman wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:39 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:06 am
bahman wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:00 pm The emergence of a new property such as experience is magic which is not possible within materialism. We know the properties of matter, mass, charge, etc. but not experience. Matter in raw form is dead in materialism.
What is experienced and justified is really real.
Do you agree with this.
What is experienced, matter, is an illusion since does not persist during the change.
I have stated the obvious 'the only constant [persisting] is change'.
Note Heraclitus'
Heraclitus concluded that nature is change. Like a river, nature flows ever onwards. Even the nature of the flow changes.

Heraclitus’ vision of life is clear in his epigram on the river of flux:

‘We both step and do not step in the same rivers. We are and are not’ (B49a).
https://philosophyforchange.wordpress.c ... on-change/
Heraclitus' contention is there is nothing that persists within change.
Can you prove him wrong?
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:06 am Your point re emergence of a new property via materialism is irrelevant.
It is relevant. Matter affects matter because it has properties. No properties, no effects.
The above is pure speculation and illusory.
There is no matter-in-itself that effects another matter-in-itself.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Reality is an Emergence

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:59 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:43 am Where we can feel the solidness of a hard piece of ice-cube within normal perception and experience, at another level of reality, that same ice-cube is 99.99% empty space with Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms interacting with each other. At the level of energy, the same ice-cube is merely a bundle of 'soft' energy.
This example of "empty space"/energy -- rather than something solid/physical/formed/specific -- is a level of perception that can apply to ALL... humans, everything of Earth, our solar system, the Universe beyond, our thoughts of gods, heaven/hell, etc. Nothing really solid... it's ALL energy. And energy doesn't need, nor is limited, to a specific path, form, or reality. Yes?
I did not go further, even 'energy' is not ultimate and absolute.
What is energy is merely as defined 'E = MC2" which is conditioned by humans who emerged with it.
There is no independent and absolute energy-in-itself as such.
So why do we superimpose solid/physical/formed/specific ideas onto something we claim as ultimate reality/truth?
I did not claim there is an ultimate reality/truth.
Whatever is reality is never ultimate and absolute but it is part and parcel with humans within such reality.

There is no way any human can extricate himself from that reality which he is part and parcel of, then thereof on his pedestal, declared there is the objective reality that in independent of himself.

The saying is no human can achieve a supposedly GOD's eye-view of an independent reality. There is no such possibility even, since God is an impossibility to begin with.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Reality is an Emergence

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

TheVisionofEr wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:18 pm
Point is this case, the illusion cannot be corrected even with the knowledge what is seen as 3D convex is actually a hollow concave side of the mask.
Interesting. OK, but we can touch it. And so there is a standard for making the distinction.
Yes, one can feel it but when one stand back and look at it, one still cannot see the truth of hollowness which one had felt earlier.

Why not?
I have demonstrated, the real solid ice cube at a more refined level of reality is not solid but 99% empty space.
I don’t follow this part of the reasoning.

It seems as though we are in the position of only having the eyes, but not the hands, in analogy to the first part. If we only have the eyes, we never have an illusion. There is no "concave" standard to compare it to.
Yes, if we only have eyes, we never have an illusion from the common sense visual perspective, thus accept what is seen empirically as truth.

Note if we only have eyes but have intellect and reasoning like we do, we can use science to dig into the truth beyond our eyes. Using Science we can measure depth [e.g.using sonar] from where the source of the light came from and when this is image, there will reveal the hollowness.

As such, it noted from the above, there are two relative truths, i.e.
  • 1. Visual truths - there is only a convex mask

    2. Scientific truth [a more refined truth], there is no convex mask, but there is only a hollow mask.
The point at this stage is, it is demonstrated there are no permanent, independent absolute truths.
What is truth is always conditioned by the defined perspective/conditions/framework.

In other words what is reality is whatever emerges [emergence] based on the defined perspective/conditions/framework.

Other than the truths above, there are more deeper and refined truths.
  • 3 Say if our vision are like bats or animals that rely totally on sonar, then we will not see the 3D-convex mask nor the hollow-mask, rather we will only see some sort of sonar-shaped-image.

    4. Say, if our vision are only capable of seeing like an electron microscope, then we will merely 'see' [perceive] a bundle of electrons and protons. This is what Scientists see when they use an electron microscope.
The above are all emergence conditioned upon its defined perspectives/conditions.

So which is reality and truth, it is 1, 2, 3, 4 or from other perspectives?
Point is the above are all true, not false, but only valid upon the defined perspective.

Since there is no absolute reality and truths that is independent by itself, what is reality [ all-there-is] is an emergence, i.e. a qualified emergent upon a defined perspective.

Thus my point;
Reality is an Emergence.
Agree?
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