Progressive vs Platonic Education

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Nick_A
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Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by Nick_A »

Greta wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:41 am
Nick_A wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:28 am
Greta wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:08 am
What of those who don't believe in God, which is either a majority or a significant minority? Your advice is very targetted and disregarding of a huge number of people.

Ideally it is a family that helps a child to become a good person and a school to give them the skills to get by in the world. When schools decide to turn students into "good people" then it comes down to how that is defined. Ideally, they'd butt out and let the parents do the parenting and just provide knowledge and skills, which they do to some extent, but they need more funding to promote creative and other abilities, to provide the kind of individualised care that is ideal.

At present they have been so under-resourced by ideology wars about funding of public bodies that many teachers are flat out just getting students through their exams, let alone participating in character building or trying to help individuals achieve their human potentials. When we, as a community, value education enough to fund it properly, the standards of education will improve - as will the capacities and happiness of the kids, who will then be more inclined to positive behaviours.
We are referring to different things. You write of adapting to cave life and I am referring to the ideal nuclear family which supports their child's need to leave the cave.
Actually, I am talking about transcending "cave life". The ideal family is obviously not necessarily nuclear because that entirely depends on the individuals, whom one expects would rather not have authoritarians dictating in fine detail exactly how they should conduct their very most private affairs.

Have you ever thought that God as you conceive it might not exist?
The value of the nuclear family isn't determined by societal standards and authorities. It is determined by the quality of energies within it - the balance of yin and yang. It is what the parents are which effects what the child is. Secular society has no interest with what a child is but only what they do - their programming.

Yes, God as I understand the concept doesn't exist. God IS. Existence is process taking place within the limits of time and space. Isness is NOW and not a process limited by time and space. The process of existence takes place within NOW.

Platonic education is primarily concerned with what a child is and the potential for their being. Progressive education is concerned with a child's personality and what they do - their conditioning. A Philosopher King would know how to balance these two impulses so a society could become objectively normal.
fooloso4
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Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

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Nick:
I’m also becoming more intrigued with Christian Platonism. I was previously unaware of howesoteric Christianity and the ideas of Plotinus and Plato are similar. Pauline metanoia refers to the turning of the soul towards the light in the same way Plato does. The question of the thread is how it relates to education.
If one is interested in Platonic education then one is interested in being educated by Plato. Plato provides an exoteric education that pretends to let you in on the secret, but, of course, it is all right there for even the most casual reader to hear all about the ascent from the cave and the transcendent world of Forms. For those who are not charmed by such stories and the appearance of mystery rites one discovers a far more austere teaching about self-knowledge and human ignorance. A tethered teaching that keeps the imagination from creating the semblance of knowledge. A teaching that does not allow us to fool ourselves into imagining we possess noetic knowledge.

If one is interested in being educated by Plato then one does not accept the noble lie presented in the exoteric teaching. Esoteric Christianity is based on exoteric Platonism, including the Platonism of Plotinus. How this relates to education is via indoctrination into the belief that only a few have transcended our human limits and know the truth, that you may some day do the same, but until then believe what we tell you.
Should education teach the means to expand our human fragmentary secular perspective into a universal perspective allowing a person to experience the place of humanity within a universal structure as opposed to in Plato’s cave.
You know nothing of a universal perspective. You accept what you have been told and think that everyone else should as well. You mistake indoctrination for experience of something you have not experienced.
Plato introduces our potential to experience reality above the divided line through noesis.
Plato introduced a mythology to replace that of the gods. Socrates is quite clear in saying that he does not know whether what he has said “happens to be true”. You may believe that you have the potential to know the arche and telos of the whole, but that is something you imagine to be true. Believe it if you want, but it should not be the basis of the education of others.
The question is how to allow the mind to open as opposed to closing it in favor of statist slavery.
Here’s the irony. What you think of as opening the mind is just the opposite. You are the one who is enslaved. The most effective means of slavery is to make the means of enslavement the means to freedom. You have not learned a basic lesson of the divided line. You mistake an image for something real. You only imagine it to be a reality you actually know nothing of. Thus you have failed to learn the most basic Platonic teaching - know thyself.
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Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

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Good to see you back, phooloso4.

This site has disintegrated somewhat. Now it has been reduced to everyone, absolutely every sane poster on this forum site, to arguing against Nick_A's claims of mystical knowledge, against VeritasAquinas' immense hatred against the Islam, against Eodnhoj7's incomprehensible but nevertheless incredibly complex and involved equations, against Attofishpi's somewhat maverick approach to seeing meaning in words that are a results of rearranging syllables or finding words inside the words that suggest deeper, supernatural or otherwise intended meaning in them.

In other words, the site has deteriorated to everyone fighting a Quixotic battle against one or another schizophrenic's idea fixa, which their proponents can't be talked out of as a rule, since they are severely damaged (in my opinion).

I am sorry to see you fall into that trap too.

It is easy to see holes in the ideas of these four, but to entertain one's self with shooting down the ideas, for a philosopher to do that, is A. like shooting fish in a barrel, B. like too tedious, if you want to allude to all they say and C. it will get the philosopher nowhere, because the ideas are fixed, they are immovable by any force of logic or facts.

At any rate, try and show me an argument in the current (not older than a month) set of posts, that are arguing against something other than the ideas of one of the four.

I think it's a shame, a terrible shame.

Anyway, have fun. If this is you also your idea of fun. I'd be surprised if it were. uwot has not been seen or heard for months, due to, I can only guess, the effect of proliferation of idle argumenting with people who are not trolls, not evil, but are obsessively tenacious to sticking to their fixed ideas.

I think the organizers ought to do something about this impossible state of affairs.
fooloso4
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Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by fooloso4 »

-1-:
Good to see you back, phooloso4.
Good to be seen.
I am sorry to see you fall into that trap too.
I know that trap all too well and will not be caught in it. I will make a few posts and get out. I won’t name names but I have already done that on another thread and will likely do the same here. I have no illusions about changing the mind of anyone I am arguing with, but there may be others reading who find some value in something I have to say. If not, then it’s not for not trying.

I agree that those who have been around for a while have taken the measure of others. Rather than just poke at holes I look for something to add. As you say, the wholes are evident.
Anyway, have fun. If this is you also your idea of fun.
It can be fun for me. I agree with Plato’s characterization of philosophy as serious play.

I have not found much here at the moment that I think I have anything worth contributing to, so I may not be around for long.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

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Nick_A wrote:The value of the nuclear family isn't determined by societal standards and authorities. ...
Then you'd have to explain why the construction of the 'nuclear family' has changed and why it is a relatively new occurence to not be in an extended family?
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Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

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Arising_uk wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:33 pm
Nick_A wrote:The value of the nuclear family isn't determined by societal standards and authorities. ...
Then you'd have to explain why the construction of the 'nuclear family' has changed and why it is a relatively new occurence to not be in an extended family?
The Bible has only nuclear families to speak of. Well, not quite, but it's a Christian thing, one man, one woman, their children. May be other cultures' norm as well, but it's definitely the western industrial society's norm,which grew out of Christianity, which grew out of the Bible, and I daresay that's good enough for good ole' Nick_A.

I always thought, by the way, when I was learning English as an adult, that a nuclear family consists of Papa Protons, Nanny Neutrons, and then their children, the Electrons.
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Greta
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Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by Greta »

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Nick_A
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Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by Nick_A »

F4
If one is interested in Platonic education then one is interested in being educated by Plato. Plato provides an exoteric education that pretends to let you in on the secret, but, of course, it is all right there for even the most casual reader to hear all about the ascent from the cave and the transcendent world of Forms. For those who are not charmed by such stories and the appearance of mystery rites one discovers a far more austere teaching about self-knowledge and human ignorance. A tethered teaching that keeps the imagination from creating the semblance of knowledge. A teaching that does not allow us to fool ourselves into imagining we possess noetic knowledge.
Apparently you are unaware that Plato and Socrates are part of the Perennial teaching that has always existed. Now for those looking on, the idea seems absurd so l’ll post some background

http://www.worldwisdom.com/public/slide ... =373[quote]

Our starting point will be a definition taken from the primary writer on the Perennial Philosophy in the twentieth century, Frithjof Schuon:

The term philosophia perennis…designates the science of fundamental and universal ontological principles…

This is certainly a very compact statement. However, we will look at it word by word in the rest of this slideshow, and in doing so we hope to gradually unfold the layers of meaning that can help us understand the Perennial Philosophy.

However, before we examine Schuon's terse statement, here is a paragraph that should immediately offer some keys to understanding the Perennial Philosophy. It is found in William Stoddart's introduction to Ye Shall Know the Truth: Christianity and the Perennial Philosophy. Stoddart writes:


The central idea of the perennial philosophy is that Divine Truth is one, timeless, and universal, and that the different religions are but different languages expressing that one Truth. The symbol most often used to convey this idea is that of the uncolored light and the many colors of the spectrum which are made visible only when the uncolored light is refracted. In the Renaissance, the term betokened the recognition of the fact that the philosophies of Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle, and Plotinus incontrovertibly expounded the same truth as lay at the heart of Christianity. Subsequently the meaning of the term was enlarged to cover the metaphysics and mysticisms of all of the great world religions, notably, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam.

What is important to note here are two prominent characteristics of the Perennial Philosophy: First, its starting point is an Absolute. It proceeds from the notion that there is a God, which puts it at odds with most modern philosophies. Second, though resting on the principle of an Absolute Reality, it is non-sectarian. When writing of the Divine Truth, for example, Perennialists have no agenda due to their personal religious affiliations. They only search to express that Truth on its own terms, not on the terms of one or another of its earthly expressions. The Perennial Philosophy respects the theologies of the great religious traditions, but points out to us that these all are various "colors," to use Stoddart's image, derived from the same uncolored Source. It is this Source and its nature that is of primary importance to perennialists.

We can now move on to Schuon's statement, but first we will have to clear up the confusion that arises from the use of certain terminology………………...[/quote]

The value of Platonic education is that it reflects the essence of the perennial philosophy which is the potential for Man to consciously evolve towards its source and become a conscious being. This requires turning towards the light. The need is the same in all the perennial traditions. Platonic education revolves around inwardly turning towards the light. In contrast progressive education revolves around fixating and arguing opinions based on fragmentary knowledge

Of course modern secularism must be closed to the idea since it only accepts one level of reality and ridicule all those open to it. But the idea must be kept alive in the world for those still inwardly alive and open to the awareness of a reality greater then themselves which provides objective meaning regardless of how they are scorned
You know nothing of a universal perspective. You accept what you have been told and think that everyone else should as well. You mistake indoctrination for experience of something you have not experienced..
No, you know nothing of the third dimension of thought. You only recognize a flat perspective. You are yet to experience the third dimension of thought which enables the experience of the quality of the moment. If you ever do you will experience the psychological inner vertical direction which leads to inwardly turning towards the light.
Plato introduced a mythology to replace that of the gods. Socrates is quite clear in saying that he does not know whether what he has said “happens to be true”. You may believe that you have the potential to know the arche and telos of the whole, but that is something you imagine to be true. Believe it if you want, but it should not be the basis of the education of others.
Plato created the myth of the cave to arouse contemplation and the attempts towards verification. Without the myth people just argue. The myth of the cave allows for the momentary inner experience of what it means to turn towards the light. It contributes to awakening. It is an essential goal of Platonic education.
Here’s the irony. What you think of as opening the mind is just the opposite. You are the one who is enslaved. The most effective means of slavery is to make the means of enslavement the means to freedom. You have not learned a basic lesson of the divided line. You mistake an image for something real. You only imagine it to be a reality you actually know nothing of. Thus you have failed to learn the most basic Platonic teaching - know thyself.
You’ve described the goal of progressive education. It pretends “to make the means of enslavement the means to freedom.” The sad part is that you are not alone. Secular progressives do their best to destroy the awakening impulse within the young through the process of spirit killing just to protect their own inner slavery.

Yes, a basic effort in Platonic education is the attempt to “know thyself” When you experience that you cannot do it, you will be closer to the experience rather than be content to imagine yourself.
Nick_A
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Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

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Greta wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:46 pm
Nick_A wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:01 pm
Greta wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:41 am

Actually, I am talking about transcending "cave life". The ideal family is obviously not necessarily nuclear because that entirely depends on the individuals, whom one expects would rather not have authoritarians dictating in fine detail exactly how they should conduct their very most private affairs.

Have you ever thought that God as you conceive it might not exist?
The value of the nuclear family isn't determined by societal standards and authorities. It is determined by the quality of energies within it - the balance of yin and yang. It is what the parents are which effects what the child is. Secular society has no interest with what a child is but only what they do - their programming.
This of course is nonsense. As Flash noted , the nuclear family is a relativity modern arrangement for humans. What happened to grandma and grandpa, cousins, and all the eccentric aunties and uncles?

I think your problem is coming from such a young culture. If one is born into a young culture and does not realise or counter the natural relative superficiality that it brings, then it's easy to be caught up. This is the US conservatives' (and their equivalents in other young cultures) problem, with their odd obsessions, such as that with the nuclear family - superficiality.

Secularism only became popular because religions had so long abused its power, where they showed that they cared nothing whatsoever about who children were, with about a fifth of office holders for many decades perpetrating abuses that still shock and appal secularists today. All that ever mattered to religions was that they produced good little Christian soldiers.

If you want to talk about "cave life" - unexamined lives based on shallow roots - look no further than American conservative evangelism.
Your problem is that you don't know what the human organism is much less how it conducts the essential energies. If you re not aware of what the imbalance of the tripartite soul is, you cannot comprehend the human condition. Balancing energies as an ideal must be meaningless for you
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Greta
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Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

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Nick_A
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Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

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Greta
You yourself don't have a clue what it means to "balance energies". You have no idea what those actual energies are or how to even begin to balance them. You just read this stuff somewhere and are just reporting.

If you cannot see the awesome shallowness of American evangelism then you are hardly going to notice subtle energies within.
Religion is a relative term. It has one meaning at the exoteric level, another at the esoteric level and still another at the transcendent. The exotric level is shallow by definition. A sincere seeker of truth desires to experience what is necessary to evolve from the exoteric by means of the esoteric and experience the transcendent. You are content to complain about the exoteric since it is your domain. What good is one idiot calling another idiot a idiot? As offensive as it seems, is it really so strange that an idiot could desire to be less of an idiot rather than seek to argue with other idiots and admit as Socrates did that "I know nothing."
fooloso4
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Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

Post by fooloso4 »

Nick:
Apparently you are unaware that Plato and Socrates are part of the Perennial teaching that has always existed. Now for those looking on, the idea seems absurd so l’ll post some background
I am aware of it, and don’t buy it, but don’t let that stop you from posting this yet again.

You’ve got it backwards. Neither Plato nor Socrates identified their work with a perennial teaching. It is those who believe in a perennial teaching who ascribe it to them.

We have been over all of this before. You advocate for a “Platonic teaching” but ignore what Plato actually said. You rely on second and third hand accounts of Plato and make questionable associations based on your imagined mystical world. I have invited you before to participate in a close reading of the Republic or any other dialogue of your choice, but you ignored the invitation, preferring frictionless flights of the imagination to a world of your own creation.
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Greta
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Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

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Nick_A
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Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

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fooloso4 wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:33 pm Nick:
Apparently you are unaware that Plato and Socrates are part of the Perennial teaching that has always existed. Now for those looking on, the idea seems absurd so l’ll post some background
I am aware of it, and don’t buy it, but don’t let that stop you from posting this yet again.

You’ve got it backwards. Neither Plato nor Socrates identified their work with a perennial teaching. It is those who believe in a perennial teaching who ascribe it to them.

We have been over all of this before. You advocate for a “Platonic teaching” but ignore what Plato actually said. You rely on second and third hand accounts of Plato and make questionable associations based on your imagined mystical world. I have invited you before to participate in a close reading of the Republic or any other dialogue of your choice, but you ignored the invitation, preferring frictionless flights of the imagination to a world of your own creation.
“[Education] isn’t the craft of putting sight into the soul. Education takes for granted that sight is there but that it isn’t turned the right way or looking where it ought to look, and it tries to redirect it appropriately.”
(The Republic, Book VII)
You either get it or you don't.
Nick_A
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Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education

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Excerpted from a letter Simone Weil wrote on May 15, 1942 in Marseilles, France to her close friend Father Perrin:
At fourteen I fell into one of those fits of bottomless despair that come with adolescence, and I seriously thought of dying because of the mediocrity of my natural faculties. The exceptional gifts of my brother, who had a childhood and youth comparable to those of Pascal, brought my own inferiority home to me. I did not mind having no visible successes, but what did grieve me was the idea of being excluded from that transcendent kingdom to which only the truly great have access and wherein truth abides. I preferred to die rather than live without that truth.................


Those like F4 and Greta cannot understand the needs of those like Simone. They consider it escapism of a woman who needs professional help. It is absurd to need to be part of a transcendent kingdom that doesn't exist and rejected by the world around her. Even the concept becomes corrupted and secularized. What is this attraction to elitism? Did she believe she was better than the rest.

But what if she was right? What if conscious humanity does exist? What would it take to become part of it. Suppose Socrates was right and those who had experienced the light would be scorned. From the Cave allegory:
[Socrates] And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the cave, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.
Yes, students like Simone who have seen the light must be scorned. It is for their own good. they must be made normal. Now spirit killing can be effective for the majority of the young but then there are those like Simone. They are willing to annoy the Great Beast in the quest to become themselves. How to handle these upstarts? Even inventing progressive education won't help. She will still strive for what the secularists cannot understand and must condemn to retain their dominance.

When Simone died there were seven outsiders at her funeral. Now she is loved around the world and called the Patron Saint of Outsiders by those who also consider themselves outsiders

Those like Simone will always be hated for not being normal but loved by those sensing what it means to be human. Platonic education serves the need to be human. Progressive education serves the desire to create and accept normality. Progressive education will take place in public education while Platonic education will take place in private. IMO, they will be the fortunate ones if they have sensed the light.
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