Atla wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:59 pm
Everything around here is a part of the universe. It's not possible not to show it. You are playing dumb to avoid the issue.
No. I am playing smart by avoiding your false dichotomy. Because you are trying to frame the argument. I won't let you do that
My frame of reference is broader than yours.
So it's part of the universe then? I agree.
But I didn't ask you for "part of the universe". I was very specific in my words. I asked you to show me "The Universe".
The WHOLE thing. All of it! Not just parts of it.
We can't show the entire universe, only the observable part.
That's irrelevant here, since according to you, there should be plenty of information here in the observable part as well. You are trying to avoid the issue because there is no information you could show and you know it.
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:03 pm
We can't show the entire universe, only the observable part.
OK. I will settle for that. Show it to me.
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:03 pm
That's irrelevant here, since according to you, there should be plenty of information here in the observable part as well. You are trying to avoid the issue because there is no information you could show and you know it.
I said information is a concept. it is in my head. I know it is in my head.
it is your turn to work out that "the universe" (or the observable universe) is also a concept. In your head.
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:03 pm
We can't show the entire universe, only the observable part.
OK. I will settle for that. Show it to me.
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:03 pm
That's irrelevant here, since according to you, there should be plenty of information here in the observable part as well. You are trying to avoid the issue because there is no information you could show and you know it.
I said information is a concept. it is in my head. I know it is in my head.
it is your turn to work out that "the universe" (or the observable universe) is also a concept. In your head.
You can't show it either. And you know it too.
So you are saying that nothing exists? Asserting it is the refutation.
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:10 pm
Forget the universe, it's your pathetic attempt to avoid the issue. Can you show me information the same way you would show me a cat?
No, I can't forget the universe. It is THE issue. And you not showing me "The Whole Universe" is YOU avoiding the issue I am pointing out.
How do you want me to SHOW you information? I told you it's a CONCEPT in my head. I can point you to wikipedia. Mathematics. Science. Computers. Everything around you to demonstrate to you that the concept WORKS.
But I can't show you the CONCEPT itself. Do you want me to cut my brain open for you? All you will get is brain matter on yourself. I promise you - it's messy.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:10 pm
Forget the universe, it's your pathetic attempt to avoid the issue. Can you show me information the same way you would show me a cat?
No, I can't forget the universe. It is THE issue. And you not showing me "The Whole Universe" is YOU avoiding the issue I am pointing out.
How do you want me to SHOW you information? I told you it's a concept in my head. Do you want me to cut my brain open for you?
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:14 pm
Have you never seen a cat before?
Of course I've seen the thing you call a "cat". Stop with your lame attempts to frame my argument
Have you never seen a universe before?
We can show a cat, you know those little animals running around, they purr and bite.
We can't show information the same way. Instead we will always find something like electrons, or ink on a paper, or sound waves, or whatever. They are things and they have a position in spacetime. But we will find no "information in itself", that's just an abstraction.
You even had to deny that the universe is there at all, to avoid the issue (which makes you nonexistent too). Some people with the information insanity can go to such great lengths.
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:24 pm
We can show a cat, you know those little animals running around, they purr and bite.
I didn't ask you to show me a cat.
I asked you to show me The Whole Universe (which includes all those little 'animals running around, that purr and bite' ).
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:24 pm
You even had to deny that the universe is there at all, to avoid the issue (which makes you nonexistent too). Some people with the information insanity can go to such great lengths.
I denied the universe is there? Wow. You are resorting to lies now to win an argument? That's just a douchebag move!
Did I say the universe does not exist? No I did not. I am pretty sure YOU said that thinking that I said that. I think you called it... projection?
I am simply asking you to SHOW me The Observable Universe. The WHOLE thing!
You are having to resort to strawman after strawman. Surely it's a sign that you are actually wrong?
Just so that we can avoid wasting each other's time with this back-and-forth (if it is possible) - I am going to tell you my strategy, so you can consider your responses/arguments more carefully.
I am going to keep contradicting you and showing you things you can't do until you admit that you are wrong and until you concede that concepts (like "The Universe") exists and that they are real Even though they are 'just' in our heads.
You can extract information from any physical object or system but information itself is a concept and nothing else
For example a spider has eight legs but eight is a conceptual reference to a specific quantity of something physical
surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:43 pm
You can extract information from any physical object or system but information itself is a concept and nothing else
For example a spider has eight legs but eight is a conceptual reference to a specific quantity of something physical
And what about the preservation of quantum information?
I think of information as being something abstract or conceptual rather than something specifically physical
I think Hawking radiation is physical rather than abstract or conceptual because it is an actual phenomenon
I know information is regarded as physical but I tend to separate them for reasons of clarity and simplicity
surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:10 pm
I think of information as being something abstract or conceptual rather than something specifically physical
In my epistemology there is no distinction between the two. Since all your thoughts are abstract and conceptual.... by definition of them being thoughts.
surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:10 pm
I think Hawking radiation is physical rather than abstract or conceptual because it is an actual phenomenon
I know information is regarded as physical but I tend to separate them for reasons of clarity and simplicity
The fact that you are mutating the mental states of a person halfway around the world and they are reciprocating is not an 'actual phenomenon'? Communication that is...
I don't find anything simple about creating unnecessary categories in my head. It tends to lead to many errors in reasoning. Keep it simple, stupid!
