Abortion is murder, or is it?

[Dalek Prime]

I think the problem here, in part, is considering a baby or a woman as a commodity. Something someone owns. It's a distortion of what men believe of, and for, themselves.

[henry quirk]

No.

The problem here is one claiming autonomy (my body, my choice) while demanding the other finance that autonomy.

As I say: the two don't connect.

[Dalek Prime]

No.

The problem here is one claiming autonomy (my body, my choice) while demanding the other finance that autonomy.

As I say: the two don't connect.

You and I are in a unique position where we don't have to risk this issue. If a man impregnates a woman, and she wants to keep it, he should be on the hook for finances. If she doesn't, she gets the abortion, pays for it, and he's not.

[henry quirk]

Well, I argue if a woman allows a man to impregnate her then refuses him a say in the pregnancy, she's on her own.

How do you reconcile...

How's about we just mind our own business, and leave women's bodies to themselves? I'm so sick of people trying to control them. Honestly, men should get bugger all say in what a woman does with her life or her body. You seed them, that's it.

...with...

If a man impregnates a woman, and she wants to keep it, he should be on the hook for finances. If she doesn't, she gets the abortion, pays for it, and he's not.?

For 'my body, my choice' to mean anything it must incorporate 'my responsibility'.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

No.

The problem here is one claiming autonomy (my body, my choice) while demanding the other finance that autonomy.

As I say: the two don't connect.

Well your dick is yours isn't it? You could always shove a condom on it if you're that worried about child support.

[Dalek Prime]

Well, I argue if a woman allows a man to impregnate her then refuses him a say in the pregnancy, she's on her own.

How do you reconcile...

How's about we just mind our own business, and leave women's bodies to themselves? I'm so sick of people trying to control them. Honestly, men should get bugger all say in what a woman does with her life or her body. You seed them, that's it.

...with...

If a man impregnates a woman, and she wants to keep it, he should be on the hook for finances. If she doesn't, she gets the abortion, pays for it, and he's not.?

For 'my body, my choice' to mean anything it must incorporate 'my responsibility'.

Okay, but by the same token, a man should never feel he should have access to the child, or say.

But I'd like to point out two states. Where the baby is, for all intents, a part of a woman's body. Once that child is born, no longer. All I'm saying is, whilst the foetus is part of the womb, say over a baby is say over a woman's body. No man would stand for this situation, even for a moment.

Honestly Henry, I used to have the same thoughts as you on the subject, until I came to realize that women are truly commoditized by every society. I understand the need for separate spaces for them as well. Men are not commoditized this way.

[sthitapragya]

No.

The problem here is one claiming autonomy (my body, my choice) while demanding the other finance that autonomy.

As I say: the two don't connect.

Though, in some sense I agree with you, the problem here is that any man can then claim at anytime that he did not want the child and get away. It would be a question of her word against his in every case. So even if both want a child, for 9 months a woman would have to live with the fear that the man can back out and run away at any time, without any risk of consequences. The only way to circumvent that would be that as soon as a woman gets pregnant through consensual sex and knows about it she must make the man aware of the pregnancy and both parties should sign a document revealing their wishes regarding the child.

[henry quirk]

vegtax,

And Jane's pussy belongs to her, she's responsible for it and (if she asserts autonomy) whatever comes out of it.

##

Dal,

"a man should never feel he should have access to the child, or say."

And a woman should never feel she should have access to the man's money, but many do even as they (pretend to) assert autonomy.

#

"women are truly commoditized by every society"

Boo-hoo...every one, and I mean everyone, gets marginalzed, denigrated, reduced, insulted, made into fodder, or made into a commodity...I'm well past the place where I cut any slack to any one cuz of race, sex, gender, politics, persuasion, capacity, etc.

By the time a body becomes adult it either takes responsibility for itself (and takes a dim view of folks wanting to 'protect' it) or it doesn't...those that can't or won't are children (in the head, at least)...seat them at the kiddie table, pay them no never mind...certainly, do not structure a society (or legal system) around their whims and conniptions.

##

sthit,

There are all manner of circumstance...

Joe wants the baby, Jane doesn't

Jane wants the baby, Joe doesn't

Jane wants the baby, Joe wants to be involved, Jane sez 'no', Jane also sez 'pay up, Joe'

And on and on and on...permutation and peversity of relationship.

The ideal: Jane and Joe speak frankly and honestly in advance of he parkin' his car in her garage...thing is: to speak frankly and honestly you have to know the contents of your own head, be able to accept the consequences of frank honesty (which could mean you sleep alone), and be able to delay fleshy yearnings...these are actions or respones of an adult and, plainly, there just aren't too many of those around...rutting super apes or overgrown kids is mostly what makes up the seven billion plus on this rock...envious, grasping, tantruming children lookin' for guidance and rule from other envious, grasping, tantruming children.

#

To ask 'is abortion murder?' is well puttin' the cart before the mule.

[Immanuel Can]

It is a popular but mistaken belief that a foetus is a new human being.

I went hunting with my friends, Tom and Henry. We were shooting deer that day...well, we were trying to, but by noon we hadn't got anything.

So I said, "Hey, Henry, go a bit west and circle around, and make a bit of a racket. You might chase us out a deer. Tom and I will wait on the trail, and see what comes.

"Okay," said Henry. And off he went.

Well, sure as shootin' about ten minute later there was a heck of a ruckus just to the right side of the trail. "We got one," I whispered to Tom as I slipped the safety catch off with my thumb and raised the rifle to my shoulder.

"Don't shoot 'till you see it and know for sure what it is," said Tom. It could be a doe, or it could be a fawn, or even a bear. And we wouldn't want to plug Henry."

"Yeah, I said, but it could be a deer. If we don't take this shot, then maybe we get nothing." The bushes continued to rustle, and nothing appeared. I was getting more worried we'd miss our chance. "I'm going to put a few slugs right through that thicket," I said. "Whatever's in there, we're taking it down."

"You can't do that," gasped Tom. "What if it was Henry? We just can't risk it. Don't be a fool!"

"Get off my case," I told him. "It's my hunting trip, my idea, and my gun. And I say it's not a human being. If you think otherwise, you're a Nazi who's trying to take my freedom away. It's my right to kill it if I want to. Anyway, who's to say it's not a deer? Who's to say it's anything at all? Mind your own business."

So Tom tried to take my gun.

He's lucky I didn't shoot him. Anyway, it turned out it was Henry after all.

So I learned something that day: you can't murder something you didn't shoot. But you can murder something you did. So who had the responsibility to show whether or not the rustling in the bushes was a deer or a human being...me, or Tom?

A word to the wise is sufficient.

[Immanuel Can]

I think the problem here, in part, is considering a baby or a woman as a commodity. Something someone owns. It's a distortion of what men believe of, and for, themselves.

Lessee....people owning other human beings....

Yep, it's been tried.

Refresh my memory, folks...how did it work out the last time?

[artisticsolution]

IC...Is the bush supposed to be the woman in this scenero? lol It works so well when you replace a real life human with vegetation...doesn't it? .lol

This is the problem I see with the abortion issue. Those who are against abortion, only have the fetus/cells in mind. The woman carrying the fetus is given no concern at all...she might as well be a test tube or incubator.

If abortion is wrong, then surely making a woman carry and give birth is wrong too?

Imagine this scenario...

Science figures out how to carry an embryo to full term outside a woman's body. Any woman who does not wish to have a child, must by law, go to a donation facility to have the embryo extracted and placed in one of these incubators that carry the embryo to full term, which then would become a ward of the state and the government would be responsible for the child until it becomes an adult.

You kill 2 birds with one stone...or should I say 2 rights don't make a wrong? In other words, you haven't murdered or enslaved anyone.

Or do you prefer the tradition enslavement of the woman? because that is what it is to force a woman to take care of an unwanted pregnancy and resulting child.

I wish people would considered there are 2 lives at stake and not think of the mother as a 'bush'.

[uwot]

If abortion is wrong, then surely making a woman carry and give birth is wrong too?

The wonderful news is that some religions insist that it is wrong to take effective measures to prevent pregnancy in the first place and that is an objective fact, because god says so. Love the picture by the way.
You're still here, Immanuel Can. In a way, I'm rather pleased; there are some fuckwits polluting this site that make you seem quite charming. How about you have a chat with them? I'll keep out of your way. For a bit. Please? Tell you what: I'll delete the post in which I said god can go fuck himself (I was a bit pissed off at the time, anyway). If you think it will help, I'll even throw in a couple of Hail Marys; my wife's a Catholic, she'll show me how.

[henry quirk]

"Anyway, it turned out it was Henry after all."

Yep, and you're lucky I didn't shoot you.

Wouldn't that simplify things? If lil still-in-the-womb Stan had the means to fight back?

The doc approaches, aborting tools in hand...blasts of buckshot from Mom's nethers punch a hole in his chest or face...lil Stan reloads his sawed off, yelling 'that's what you get!'.

The abortion debate would go in an entirely different direction then.

Scores of docs refusing to go anywhere near vagina for fear of embryo violence.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

This is the problem I see with the abortion issue. Those who are against abortion, only have the fetus/cells in mind. The woman carrying the fetus is given no concern at all...she might as well be a test tube or incubator.

Interesting point, but the opposite of the truth. The 'pro-life' movement is ONLY concerned with the mother.

[artisticsolution]

This is the problem I see with the abortion issue. Those who are against abortion, only have the fetus/cells in mind. The woman carrying the fetus is given no concern at all...she might as well be a test tube or incubator.

Interesting point, but the opposite of the truth. The 'pro-life' movement is ONLY concerned with the mother.

Not true...I am not only concerned with the mother better to never be pregnant if you don't want to be a mother. BUT shit happens...and it just so happens to women exclusively.

That is why I thought it would be interesting to see what happened if it came to be that science could extract a fetus and the people/government could raise it to adulthood. Just a thought experiment to see who would be pro life vs. pro choice ...would attitudes change...maybe?